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[–] threesuschrist 1 points 135 points (+136|-1) ago 

I think the main issue is the growing sense of narcissism in the western culture. We are pumped full of statements making us "special". Many hostile feminists seem to be clinging on to that immature belief that they are better than the rest and more special, thus deserving more attention.

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[–] Echo_of_Savages 0 points 78 points (+78|-0) ago 

Westerners have a sense of entitlement. And it's not just feminists, it's most americans. It's the hamplanets who complain at the drive - thru. It's the douchebag in his mommy's bmw swerving through traffic. It's the hipster who makes negative twitter rants while sipping his Trenta mocha frappuchino.... we live in a fucking bubble man

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[–] BaIoo 8 points 38 points (+46|-8) ago  (edited ago)

pfft it's not just america, much of the eu is that way inclined too. here in the uk and all over europe are closing our borders to all the desperate people of africa and the middle east. all you hear everywhere is how we deserve our wealth, why should we have to share it, completely forgetting that it's built on the back of centuries of slavery. they cant comprehend that the only reason they can buy a new iphone is because some poor bastard in africa mined the minerals for less than a dollar a day and then some poor chinese factory worker assembled it whilst half asleep.

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[–] threesuschrist 0 points 10 points (+10|-0) ago 

I have to agree with you. It just makes me feel like it is going to al come crashing down soon :/ .

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[–] PlayByPlayAnnouncer 0 points 8 points (+8|-0) ago 

It's one of the negative side effects of individualism. Of course the knife cuts both ways: we also tend to get exceptional people because every once in a while the delusion becomes a self fulfilling prophesy. When you think you can't fail, you don't quit.

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[–] sesstreets 0 points 6 points (+6|-0) ago 

How is this a 'westerner' thing? I'm all for the apathetic world is ending circle jerk but what makes you think people in Asia or Europe or Australia aren't just as or MORE entitled?

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[–] mattfloyd 0 points 25 points (+25|-0) ago 

What are you talking about? I'm an American and I'm not narcissistic at all. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm better than everybody else.

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[–] Bazrum 1 points 7 points (+8|-1) ago  (edited ago)

I was going to upvoat but then that dang pop up got me. Consider this an upvoat and I'll be back with the real thing soon enough.

Edit: I'm back and I finally upvoated! Told you guys I'd do it! Even if it took six days....

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[–] 2314234234 0 points 9 points (+9|-0) ago 

I took a feminism class in college. Worse class I have ever taken. The main points on why women are oppressed were mainly based on how women are treated in OTHER COUNTRIES or about historical events.

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[–] Qikdraw 0 points 10 points (+10|-0) ago 

I took a feminism class in college. Worse class I have ever taken

This was 20+ years ago, but a friend of mine wanted to join the local police force and so he was taking courses at university to help him be a better choice for the recruiters. He decided to take a 'women's studies' class. He figured he should learn more about women's issues and how he should approach it if he finds it while a police officer. It was him and one other guy in class, full of women. Everyone from the professor on down treated them like shit. He lasted a month before he dropped the class. He went in to make a complaint about the professor and found out that there were a bunch of complaints about him, basically because he was just in the class itself it was a disruption.

The university never did take any action against him because just being in a class is not disruption, but I don't think they did anything to the professor either. Even then that university was a hotbed of people with issues thinking they were oppressed and were special snowflakes.

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[–] Lightning_Dick 0 points 5 points (+5|-0) ago 

Bingo, then they translate those issues in other areas/times to places where they don't exist and whine oppression. Best part is, they do little to nothing to fix the issues where they truly matter. Snarky tumblr posts won't help the truly oppressed women 3rd world countries ffs.

[–] [deleted] 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

[Deleted]

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[–] Toomanylamps 1 points -1 points (+0|-1) ago 

Isn't this still pretty relevant? Seems good to know.

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[–] thesilverpig 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

this is a true statement. Hedonism is not the goal!!

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[–] Lord_Gaga 1 points 69 points (+70|-1) ago 

CHS is always on point. I don't agree with all of her politics, but she's an extremely intelligent person.

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[–] jjkmk 1 points 15 points (+16|-1) ago 

Agreed, one thing is clear; shes obviously extremely intelligent. I don't agree with her on all points, but she makes an extremely strong and persuasive argument each time.

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[–] martymcdohl 0 points 8 points (+8|-0) ago 

I like her but Prager University seems shady as hell.

[–] [deleted] 13 points 11 points (+24|-13) ago 

[Deleted]

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[–] fancypantsmanface 1 points 15 points (+16|-1) ago  (edited ago)

Hey few points of contention.

For a start the reports that she's pulling these results from are pretty widely available. They are on based off full time employed only.

So anyway. First she's not dismissing the differences she's quite open in saying that women choose lower paying fields. You are trying to say they're forced into instead. So she's said just as much about it as you did with the only difference being you don't seem to think women don't have free will.

Men do get parental leave too, not everywhere but it's on the increase, but it's shorter almost everywhere that it exists. Women on the other hand are much more likely to take a few years leave of absence or career break after a child.

Women do have a special attachment to children. Ask any man what they thought about their first born before it was born and if they answer honestly it wasn't real until they held it and still don't really get it until it starts getting its own personality months later. It's simply not the same for most women. Different genders do have different instincts.

Women also are far more prone to nesting and have, in general, a much lower acceptance for mess. Women care about mess first almost always.

Gender based expectations are there because we're different. Until you can change that it will never be a better outcome for anyone to try ignore it.

Additionally, I completely agree with you here. Can't fault a word of it. But from an equality view... Men have none. Two people have sex and then one person has complete control and choice on what happens from there. So if you're argument is that women still don't have equality the less said by you about things that men have no rights in regard to the better surely?

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[–] powny 0 points 12 points (+12|-0) ago  (edited ago)

I think what skews this view a lot is the top 1%. I'd hazard a guess that 90% of CEOs and upper management are male, which will impact those "equality" surveys and "studies". I have been working in IT and games industry for the last 8 years and all of middle management is filled up with women, while most of the ground work is done by men. Even in companies I worked at where you'd have 90% male employees, you would have about 30-50% female in leading roles / middle management. Yes, they are not being promoted because they have tits and slept with the bosses, they actually have skills and do a great job. But at least half of them have been promoted over more qualified male employees out of fear of being called a "sexist" company. That is an inequality that nobody likes to talk about.

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[–] WorLord 1 points 9 points (+10|-1) ago 

It's so dishonest

Dishonest: that's exactly the word that comes to my mind when I see the current feminist line of thinking. Even the way you lay it out seems to be little more than "different types of people are doing different things for different reasons, therefore... problem! And that problem must be oppression!"

There are two leaps of faith to take there, and I'm not much of a believer.

Your comment about paternity leave also seems to (disingenuously, at best) sidestep the point of the original critique. It isn't about whether or not men "deserve the opportunity" to take leave to start a family -- though that is something worth discussing on its own -- it's about whether or not men, on the whole and if left to their own devices, would even want to start a family at all, much less want that enough to desire and request leave to do it (when, of course, compared to women on the whole).

And on top of all that, you then somehow attempt to attempt to distill everything down into the snide assertion that this is all somehow about OP implying that women have an "innate preference for vacuuming and washing dishes"?

Dishonest would be the word. I don't believe you, in particular, are being dishonest, but I believe the worldview you espouse certainly is. Even when it comes to your last statement about women's reproductive rights: it IS a huge issue right now, but even in my rampant pro-choiceness I can see that the discussion isn't entirely about women's rights, and is -- from the "enemy"'s perspective -- about prioritizing the lives of the most helpless among us above all. They're wrong, but to paint them as being motivated by sexism is... well, dishonest.

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[–] Qikdraw 0 points 4 points (+4|-0) ago 

"Women are more likely to take long leaves of absence, usually to start a family"

Don't men deserve the opportunity to take paternity leave to start a family? No, we'll just throw this out like it's a fact of life >that negates any social issues.

Yes they do, and in fact in the majority of 'first world' countries they do have that option. Many other countries have this as well, its just the US that has the problem, with both mat and pat leave. Some jobs may offer it, but as a whole it is not offered at all. This isn't a 'society' thing though, this is a corporate mandating federal and state policy thing. So when you can kick money out of politics, and stop politicians from becoming lobbyists when they leave office, then you might be able to get people to support mat and pat leave.

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[–] doxer 1 points 1 points (+2|-1) ago 

I enjoy her stuff l, her voice is so calming as well. I'd upvoat you, but popups.

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[–] ndwork 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

What points do you disagree with?

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[–] nigganaut 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

the female bits, mostly.

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[–] PeterParking 9 points 30 points (+39|-9) ago 

I have to be honest, I hate that video.

People keep focusing on gender issues when they should be focusing on human problems.

A lot of the gaps that are seen today between genders and how they live their lives are tightly nit to birth, giving birth, and having children.

For instance, if instead of maternity and paternity leaves you had parental leaves, mandatory for both parents and for the same length you would clear a lot of disparity in working time and wages between genders.

If falsehood claims were severely punished the judicial system would be able to have cleared decision abilities in cases of abuse and custody.

just today there were news of a father that killed his baby after being given custody by the court (despite having broken the mothers ankle just a few months back).

there is still prejudice in giving fathers custody of kids because assholes like this dude fuck it up for everyone else.

how there is such a disconnect is something that I still can't grasp.

sorry I am angry, don't know if I made much sense.

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[–] I_Plea_The_FiF 0 points 29 points (+29|-0) ago  (edited ago)

I like the idea of thinking of it as a human problem rather than a gender one, but that's a different video and discussion entirely.

the point of the video was to enlighten others about the context for the statistics. Because context is everything. I think if the most extreme feminist get rid of this Us vs Them mentality we would look at the problem as a human one rather than a gender one.

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[–] der-sert 0 points 9 points (+9|-0) ago 

Exactly right. The point of her making the video is to show that it is not an issue of gender, but one of statistical context and societal aspects that effect things such as the pay gap.

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[–] ndwork 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

There's also this issue of "victim mentality." This type of mentality instills a sense of entitlement and anger. I question whether this is helpful.

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[–] PeterParking 2 points -1 points (+1|-2) ago  (edited ago)

and she is saying all these things while picking on the most extreme examples of feminism.

originally feminism was just a platform to fight for equality, today it is a soapbox for non issues.

if she approached this video from the point of how to make life more equal for all it would be far more palatable.

unfortunately hitting 33 with no kids definitely affects your life career choices. For that period you cannot change jobs (the fear of dreaded maternity leaves, absences and so on), you are less likely to be picked for a position if the choice is between a man and a woman.

you will also pick jobs that have better working hours despite the lower wage to make sure that at least one parent has the time to be a parent.

I am not saying that there isn't a shift coming, in the bay area I see an increasing number of stay at home dads thanks to telecommuting, or just because after the second kid it takes a whole wage to get all 3 through school and kindergarten.

her assumptions on what is happiness for each gender irk me a bit. I would really like to see which papers she based herself off of for those assumptions.

Edit: and of course my very first downvotes would come in the form of disagree buttons

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[–] PlayByPlayAnnouncer 0 points 11 points (+11|-0) ago 

For instance, if instead of maternity and paternity leaves you had parental leaves, mandatory for both parents and for the same length you would clear a lot of disparity in working time and wages between genders.

Men and women aren't the same. They don't want parental leaves with the same frequency. They make different choices based on the fact that they are different, and the more we try to treat them as if they are exactly the same, the less we serve their uniqueness.

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[–] PeterParking 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago 

Would love to see if this claim stood if people could actually have a real choice.

It is easy to speak for other men when you are not a father or don't think that they should be given the freedom of choice of how they deal with their newborns.

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[–] NeckbeardPrime 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

Honestly? I absolutely wish I could have spent at least six weeks of parental leave with my wife when our daughter was born last year. Instead, I had about a week off, and was basically recalled to fix a systems issue on the first day of my vacation. After that, I was stuck working long hours and my own child didn't even recognize me until she was almost six months old.

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[–] JulesValor 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

I agree, I don't believe they should have mandatory parental leave, but I do agree that it should be offered at the same frequency.

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[–] thenerd [S] 0 points 11 points (+11|-0) ago 

Thanks for your opinion!

[–] [deleted] 0 points 5 points (+5|-0) ago 

[Deleted]

[–] [deleted] 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

[Deleted]

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[–] Jadefullness 1 points 2 points (+3|-1) ago 

One of the points made in this video is that men and women have different definitions of happiness. Generally women are happier raising kids and men are happier providing for the family. Granted, this is not true in all cases but it is how we are wierd as a species. It is not a cultural issue but a chemical one. Men do not receive the same chemical rewards that women do when caring for children which is why they tend to take on the role of providing.

We are all programmed to ensure the best rate of survival for our offspring because without this system in place, we would not be here today. This is why our society views men's and women's roles differently. Not because we want to "oppress" anyone.

The issue here is that sometimes women are happier to provide instead of raise children and men sometimes are happier raising children. But in today's society in the west there are no rules that say men and women are stuck in their "natural" roles. Women are able to have careers and men are able to stay at home and raise children. Nothing is perfect though, which is why you occasionally will see these issues of both genders being denied what makes them happy. However this is not the case 99% of the time but unfortunately there are never stories about how a man won custody of his children or about how a woman was able to get a career and provide for her family.

Tl;dr - it's not societies fault that we stereotype gender roles, it's nature's.

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[–] PeterParking 1 points 1 points (+2|-1) ago 

All those things sound very nice in theory but I doubt that there is a way to actually confirm them.

In most westernized countries you need the wages of two people to make a decent enough living to have one sole provider.

"natural" roles are "natural" because women used to have downtime from hunting/gathering/ wtv when pregnant and we're weaker/more fragile during that period. Causing a certain detachment between child rearing and providing means if survival.

Shifting from this is what, 3/4 generations old?

Would really like to see the papers that they based themselves off to say one of the genders is happier raising kids.

[–] [deleted] 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

[Deleted]

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[–] the_subhorizon 0 points 25 points (+25|-0) ago 

I challenge anyone who questions this video to actually read the American Association of University Women (AAUW) report on the wage gap. They actually state that the $0.23 gap is taking into account every job across the board rather than individual occupations. A social worker does not make the same as a petroleum engineer.

A gap does exist for specific occupations though, but that figure is around $0.97 to the $1.00 for women. The factors that a Christina Hoff Sommers pointed out are highly likely explanations of the $0.03.

One last interesting point. In the UK, women under 35 actually make more than men.

[–] [deleted] 1 points 8 points (+9|-1) ago  (edited ago)

[Deleted]

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[–] feedingofthe5000 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

They do have nothing to do with sexism. The gender roles people accept are not mandated by law. In the vast majority of things that law does favor one gender, it is females in parenting.

Also, I am going to assume you do not have kids. Little girls like dolls and maternal play (mostly) and boys do not. You can not legislate human nature.

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[–] Bookwurm 0 points 3 points (+3|-0) ago 

If that's the case, I'm moving to the UK to find a saucy broad to take care of me.

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[–] xpdx 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

The gap shrinks to 7 percent after controlling for a bunch of other factors according to page 21 of their report here

So more like 93+/- cents to the dollar.

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[–] Quark 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago 

That could be attributed to men having existed in certain fields longer than women.

[–] [deleted] 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

[Deleted]

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[–] Shakshuka 9 points 13 points (+22|-9) ago 

Prager University is just the media outlet of a right-winger and isn't anything close to a university. Go watch any of their videos on youtube to witness their conservative bias.

Or look into the man responsible: Dennis Prager

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[–] Nadrik 0 points 65 points (+65|-0) ago 

Prager University is just the media outlet of a right-winger and isn't anything close to a university.

Which doesn't really say anything about the validity of any statements made in the video. Just because someone is liberal or conservative, doesn't automatically make what they're saying untrue. Address the points, not the person.

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[–] deathbeans 0 points 10 points (+10|-0) ago 

I'm glad you said that, most people fail to address the points, and instead go for the person's political leanings or something similar.

But, this person didn't seem to give any hard evidence? She said that the "other side" used bad data, but how do we know she's not doing the same? Where are the numbers? The facts? There was a lot of asserting opinions as facts in this video.

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[–] xiaodown 0 points 3 points (+3|-0) ago 

Well, no, but one should still skeptically question the source. Information is good, but taking into account both the information provided, as well as the source, is better. The source colors the content. For example, if this was from a non-profit, non-partisan, peer-reviewed research institution, it would - at face value - carry more weight. If it was from The Society for the Advancement of Continuing Male Superiority, it would carry less weight.

Not every point needs to be addressed, by the way. I'm not talking specifically about this video, but there is a line, beyond which it is a waste of time to address the points. Most prominently, I'm thinking about the Creationism vs. Evolution "debate", for which there are no relevant points on one side of the argument. The media practice is called False Balance and the fallacy is Argument to Moderation.

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[–] jeffhayford 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

I think the point /u/Shakshuka is making is their inherit bias, they're not coming from an unbias source like a university and much of their content is created with that bias as the reason for it's production.

I also agree with you that regardless of political affiliation we should attack their specific points and overall facts, evidence and citations for which this video is severely lacking and therefore should be questioned.

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[–] Chinchurro 1 points -1 points (+0|-1) ago 

Does it say anything about the validity of any statements, no. Does it say anything about their research methods, yes. Proper unbiased research without cherry picking is not something right wing are famous for. We are talking about a propaganda channel that is pretending to be a educational channel, I am sorry for being skeptical for people who try to deceive me from the gecko.

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[–] UltraShabby 0 points 13 points (+13|-0) ago 

Usually these videos are rife with nonsense. CHS doing one of these actually takes away from her credibility for some. However, none of the points she made will be disputed by people in opposition to her with anything other than claims of internalized misogyny.

[–] [deleted] 0 points 11 points (+11|-0) ago 

[Deleted]

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[–] cointelpro_shill 1 points 2 points (+3|-1) ago 

When you get to cherry pick your favorite straw-feminist arguments, you can avoid whichever facts you'd like

[–] [deleted] 0 points 6 points (+6|-0) ago 

[Deleted]

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[–] shirts_tx 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

Liberal and progressive seem pretty closely linked, and progress is often not only good but necessary. However, there comes a point at which progress, in a given individual's view, has reached its logical endpoint on a given issue. That's likely why old and conservative fit together so nicely.

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[–] teuast 0 points 7 points (+7|-0) ago 

I love the video and I love CHS, but "happiness" is misspelled about 3:50 in and it really bugged me.

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[–] moeburn 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

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[–] MichaelDouglas 0 points 5 points (+5|-0) ago  (edited ago)

I'm not buying a lot of her claims:

Well it always turns out that [wage gap studies] have omitted one or two crucial data points

You can critique a particular study but you can't claim EVERY wage gap study ever has unspecified flaws in them.

[As doctors] women are far more likely then men to enter lowing paying specialties

Here's a study published in Health Affairs that shows even within the same specialty male doctors make more than female doctors. Lead researcher Anthony T. Lo Sasso, a professor at the School of Public Health at the University of Illinois at Chicago, writes:

we found a significant gender gap that can not be explained by specialty choice, practice setting, work hours, or other characteristics.

The same study also disproves the claim it's because women put in fewer hours.

Here's another article talking about data a Harvard University labor economist explaining putting women into higher-paying occupations would not solve the pay gap. It does however say the pay gap could be significantly narrowed if companies stop disproportionately rewarding workers who work long hours & particular hours.

Her "common sense" example is ridiculous as well.

[–] [deleted] 0 points 3 points (+3|-0) ago 

[Deleted]

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[–] namealreadytaken 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

Strawman much?

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[–] RazzleFrazzaPan 1 points 5 points (+6|-1) ago  (edited ago)

I have a lot of female friends, none of them are activists or rabid feminists, and I will tell you....having female friends, and watching the kind of shit women have to put up with on a daily basis, has made me immune to any argument that women are actually treated equally, with the same opportunities, as men.

I'll give you an easy exercise; ask any girl you know how often a random stranger will tell her, "Pretty girl like you should smile more" or, "Put a smile on that pretty face," or some variation of that. My friends get this (and worse) as a daily part of their life. Imagine if you constantly had strangers stopping you, in a public place, and saying "Hey, pretty boy like you should smile more." You can take all other accusations and toss them out--this one alone would drive me insane. I would spend half of my day berating strangers. Who the fuck are you to tell me what to do, or call me a 'boy', or inject your opinion of my facial expression, into my life? Fuck off.

But that's not all. I have friends who get followed into stores, have guys tell them 'You made my day lovely lady, where ya headed?' Touch their arms, rub their shoulders, give them unsolicited advice or conversation non-stop until the woman either has to leave the scene or create a confrontation. No man, including myself, would ever put up with this. If a stranger approached me and tried half this nonsense, I would kick them square in the balls.

And it's not just creepy guys out in public, my girlfriend has had random professional men and family doctors, for no reason at all (and entirely unsolicited) suggest that she shouldn't go through med school, she should be a Physicians Assistant instead. Shrug No reason, never mind that she is in the 99th percentile of her classes.

Fact is, some men are real fuckin' dicks and they do shit they know they could never get away with if they were dealing with a man, instead of a woman. You might not be a dick, but that doesn't mean it isn't real.

edit: a word

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[–] Corperk 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago 

I've had to deal with that shit and I'm male over the (national) mean height in a predominantly Catholic country. Usually the solutions suggested is to grow some ball and deal with the fact that people are annoying.