[–] theoldguy 0 points 82 points (+82|-0) ago 

I've read elsewhere on voat that if somebody says their privacy doesn't matter, ask to look over their files and browser history, they'll get the hint.

[–] [deleted] 1 points 28 points (+29|-1) ago 



[–] ao 1 points 28 points (+29|-1) ago  (edited ago)

I think this is the wrong approach. Unfortunately most people have never put enough thought into anything enough to stray away from the politically correct path and present moral fashions, so they truly have nothing to fear on a personal level. I think it's best to explain why the erosion of privacy is bad for society as whole. Particularly how it is fundamentally incompatible with democracy, and paves the way for a truly dystopic future with an all-seeing, all-powerful tyrannic government.


[–] Quawonk 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago  (edited ago)

Ask them to show everything to their family, friends, coworkers, bosses... It's more that just the government they should be afraid of.


[–] roznak 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

Better yet, put the naked pictures of their wives on the Internet that you grabbed through their web cam.

The freaky thing about the Windows spying is that a snapshot of your web cam can be projected on a 4K screen for 100 of NERDS to watch! You have absolutely no idea who is looking at your data. Your web cam snapshot could even be used in a manual for Indian call centers.

One day you are in front of your web cam picking your nose and the next day 1000 of views because some NERD found it cool to put it on FB.


[–] theoldguy 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

Anybody who doesn't put a bit of black electrical tape over their webcam lens in windows is an idiot, no win10 needed.

Your web cam snapshot could even be used in a manual for Indian call centers.

I read on voat a day or two ago that a woman found one of her office portraits that she posted on Facebook was on a porn site. Not win10, but still...


[–] Muesli 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

What I found to be brutally effective is (if possible) finding out their real name (I have found that a lot of "privacy doesn't matter to me" people really are that lax, and a lot of the time, the first name is one google search away) and then using it. Nothing will have your standard anonymous forum poster so fast so scared as a stranger using their first name to address them.


[–] ao 0 points 66 points (+66|-0) ago  (edited ago)

The people who are speaking best to this are the psychologists, who look at what it is like to live under constant gaze, or under the threat of. What does that do to you as a person? And what we learn is, it makes you different. It makes you more conformist. It makes you less willing to think new thoughts or try new ideas. It stagnates society. It makes us all worse. Society improves because people dare to think the unthinkable and then after 20 or 30 years everyone says, "well you know, that was kind of a good idea." It takes a while, but it has to start with doing something that you don't want anyone else to know.

So, it hurts us big and small. It hurts us in the big because society stagnates, and it hurts us in the small because we are diminished as individuals, because we cannot fully be individuals. We have to be a member of the group. I mean, there's phenomenal writings, philosophical and psychological, that really look at how this works.

-- Bruce Schneier

Commentators often attempt to refute the nothing-to-hide argument by pointing to things people want to hide. But the problem with the nothing-to-hide argument is the underlying assumption that privacy is about hiding bad things. By accepting this assumption, we concede far too much ground and invite an unproductive discussion about information that people would very likely want to hide. As the computer-security specialist Schneier aptly notes, the nothing-to-hide argument stems from a faulty "premise that privacy is about hiding a wrong." Surveillance, for example, can inhibit such lawful activities as free speech, free association, and other First Amendment rights essential for democracy.

The deeper problem with the nothing-to-hide argument is that it myopically views privacy as a form of secrecy. In contrast, understanding privacy as a plurality of related issues demonstrates that the disclosure of bad things is just one among many difficulties caused by government security measures.

-- Why Privacy Matters Even if You Have ‘Nothing to Hide’

Ultimately, you would expect that there would be riots across America. But the people could not riot. The terrorist scares at the beginning of the century had caused a number of important changes. Eventually, there were video security cameras and microphones covering and recording nearly every square inch of public space in America. There were taps on all phone conversations and Internet messages sniffing for terrorist clues. If anyone thought about starting a protest rally or a riot, or discussed any form of civil disobedience with anyone else, he was branded a terrorist and preemptively put in jail. Combine that with robotic security forces, and riots are impossible.

-- Manna, a (not very good) short story by Marshall Brain

Even if you’re not doing anything wrong, you’re being watched and recorded. And the storage capability of these systems increases every year, consistently, by orders of magnitude, to where it’s getting to the point you don’t have to have done anything wrong, you simply have to eventually fall under suspicion from somebody, even by a wrong call, and then they can use this system to go back in time and scrutinize every decision you’ve ever made, every friend you’ve ever discussed something with, and attack you on that basis, to sort of derive suspicion from an innocent life and paint anyone in the context of a wrongdoer.

-- Edward Snowden

Lack of privacy seems like a good way to encourage cultural genocide. Total transparency for individuals would make it easier for prevailing thought-leaders to suppress minority groups. Culture could be eliminated before it has a chance to coalesce to the point of daring to enter public acceptance. To think otherwise is to believe that cultural tyranny (thus legal tyranny) wouldn't exist in a world where no one may hide. That's foolish. Tyranny bred in complete openness is possibly more insidious. It's harder to escape.

-- aric

All these people will get a knock on their door from CPS, or audited by the IRS, or blacklisted from getting a job when a background check is done on your REAL opinions, etc etc etc.

This police state garbage is for everybody who isn't taken in by government and corporate propaganda, not just pedos and cyberbullies.

-- Anonymous

Yes it's true-- throughout most of human history privacy didn't exist and people lived their lives in public. Yet it's also true that much of human history was utter stagnation and conformity where nothing much happened.

-- api

Political threat is in the hospital following a stroke? How strange they died of an equipment malfunction.

-- ThePriceIsRight


[–] ao 0 points 13 points (+13|-0) ago 

A few more that are also relevant despite not directly mentioning privacy.

As a member of the Walkman generation, I have made peace with the fact that I will require a hearing aid long before I die, and of course, it won't be a hearing aid, it will be a computer I put in my body. So when I get into a car -- a computer I put my body into -- with my hearing aid -- a computer I put inside my body -- I want to know that these technologies are not designed to keep secrets from me, and to prevent me from terminating processes on them that work against my interests.

-- Cory Doctorow, The coming war on general purpose computation.

As our society grows more dependent on computers, the software we run is of critical importance to securing the future of a free society. Free software is about having control over the technology we use in our homes, schools and businesses, where computers work for our individual and communal benefit, not for proprietary software companies or governments who might seek to restrict and monitor us.

-- Free Software Foundation

The more secretive or unjust an organization is, the more leaks induce fear and paranoia in its leadership and planning coterie. This must result in minimization of efficient internal communications mechanisms (an increase in cognitive "secrecy tax") and consequent system-wide cognitive decline resulting in decreased ability to hold onto power as the environment demands adaption. Hence in a world where leaking is easy, secretive or unjust systems are nonlinearly hit relative to open, just systems. Since unjust systems, by their nature induce opponents, and in many places barely have the upper hand, mass leaking leaves them exquisitely vulnerable to those who seek to replace them with more open forms of governance.

-- Julian Assange, Governments as Conspiracies


[–] ArchangelleShe 0 points 29 points (+29|-0) ago  (edited ago)

It's a valid argument from their perspective, though. The morons who have nothing to say won't care about protecting free speech in the coming years. Pointing it out won't change their minds.

I mean, Snowden's argument relies on the assumption that people actually care about free speech and therefore they should care about privacy. We have a significant percent of the population who cares about neither.


[–] TremorAcePV 1 points 16 points (+17|-1) ago  (edited ago)

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

-- Pastor Martin Niemöller in They Thought They Were Free (1955).

A pastor commenting about the cowardice of German intellectuals following the Nazis' rise to power and the subsequent purging of their chosen targets, group after group.


[–] collator 0 points 4 points (+4|-0) ago 

I agree. I think this counter-argument by Snowden is preaching to the choir. Anybody who cares about the First Amendment is already aware of the doublespeak.


[–] deathcloc 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

Let me try to explain their position, because I think snowden is straw-manning it a bit...

The things that the vast majority of people feel they need privacy for they should not think they need privacy for. It's mostly about preventing other people from knowing that they view pornography or preventing other people from seeing their body Those are irrational things to worry about, and we should all just get over this childish squeamishness about such things. We ALL look at pornography, it should not be embarrassing at all. Being nude, looking at nudity, masturbating, having sex... us Americans and many other westerners have a ridiculous attitude toward these things that came from the Protestants that founded this country. Europeans are much better with this.

Absent of a potential dystopian future scenario where some power structure could abuse it's vast knowledge to suppress people, 99% of people have no legitimate need for privacy, the vast majority of people don't do anything that is actually wrong, only things that we have all been conditioned to believe is wrong even though we all do them.


[–] bazaarcluster 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

The whole problem is that doing something "wrong" is very very subjective... If anything just the knowledge that you are watched and if you do the "wrong" thing or even if it looks like you are doing the "wrong" thing can get you in trouble is enough. You can see this on forums already, where people activily decides not to search for some things because they don't want to have that on their "permanent record". People start to censor them selfs and impose self inflicted limits on knowledge and information that they otherwise would have accessed. This on a large enough scale have the effect of stiffling development and actual debate.

Then you get into the next part, just because you are content with the status quo today, doesn't mean you will be tomorrow. When all your search history and other data is available from your entire life you will be an easy target to eliminate if happen to challenge the status quo in the future.

Information is the most valuble commodity in this day and age, you really shouldn't give it away to anyone for no good reason.


[–] EChondo 0 points 20 points (+20|-0) ago 

I know this isn't exactly the same, but I've always loved Benjamin Franklin's quote;

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

I like to think of it now as;

Those who would give up essential Privacy, to purchase a little temporary Security, deserve neither Privacy nor Security.

[–] [deleted] 1 points 2 points (+3|-1) ago 



[–] 6double5321 0 points 3 points (+3|-0) ago  (edited ago)

The federal government can not help but want to spy on everyone.

This is where you have it backwards. The government feels it has to, because it is afraid of the common citizen. Don't forget that.


[–] TalkingAnimal 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Isn't that the entire basis of a social contract, though? Like... I give up the liberty to speed on the freeway. In exchange, everyone gives up the same liberty, under threat of financial punishment or imprisonment. As a result, we all gain safety.


[–] 50State 1 points 15 points (+16|-1) ago 

Without the aid of privacy and security Americans would still be British.


[–] lord_nougat 4 points 5 points (+9|-4) ago 

At this point, that almost sounds like an improvement.

[–] [deleted] 1 points 21 points (+22|-1) ago 



[–] lord_nougat 0 points 10 points (+10|-0) ago 

If you have nothing to hide, then go ahead and post your social security number, credit card number and passwords.

[–] [deleted] 0 points 9 points (+9|-0) ago 



[–] G392 0 points 9 points (+9|-0) ago 




[–] ThePieAssassin 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

That shit isn't stored on my computer though, so it's not really a good comparison.


[–] motoguy 2 points -1 points (+1|-2) ago 

Just FYI, people like you and their moronic logic is the whole reason Reddit is a shithole now. Consider not posting for some time until you get smarter.


[–] Caboose_Calloway 2 points 5 points (+7|-2) ago 

If you have nothing to hide you have nothing of worth.


[–] SirFarticus 0 points 4 points (+4|-0) ago 

In reality, it isn't worth it to move to another OS over this. Most data touches either Microsoft or Google, so even without windows 10 spying all my data is being tracked. I still don't given enough fucks.

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