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[–] Sashavidre 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

The religion of the Old Testament and the religion of the Talmud are two different religions. However most Jews are Talmudic Jews so through indoctrination or out of ignorance they obfuscate this fact. However it clearly is a fact because there are Karaite Jews whom reject the Talmud and hate Talmudic Jews.

Now for your point. I don't know much about the Talmud, but I have a sense of what you mean regarding the Old Testament. The Old Testament embraces compromise and wrestling with god. It's not a religion of principle or dying for what you believe in. This notion is considered reprehensible.

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[–] para_monk [S] 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

Thanks for the education. So apparently the Tanakh (Old Testament) is an ever present part of the Jewish religion, but a majority of Jews (Orthodox, Talmudic) prefer to study a long and convoluted history of debates, arguments, rulings, etc etc upon what anything in the Old Testamant / Tanakh actually means. To the point where, something can be interpreted as literally the opposite of what it says.

Nevertheless, I think my original point still stands. The source material speaks of defeat. I disagree "It's not a religion of principle or dying for what you believe in", Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego went willing to die for their beliefs. Abraham was willing to kill his son for his beliefs, Daniel faced death by lions for his beliefs. Regardless of whether they were saved in the end, the stories are all told from positions of defeat. A common story element is a Hail Mary pass by God, which one should not expect by the way, but can suffer in faith and hope for. (Spoiler, doesn't apply to real life).

Solomon, who could be one of the greatest examples of a hero figure, ultimately dismantles his own empire and led to the destruction of his legacy through his negligence. And if you ever read his musings in Ecclesiastes, he is one of the most depressed people around. His father David was not much better - and these are the heroes of the stories. The prophets are constantly imperiled through forces in the world that they can't overcome (Elijah goes into hiding and is fed by ravens), or through their own ineptitude (Jonah wanders off and gets bitch slapped by God). If one was to choose a role model, or an inspiration character from among those featured, I fear one would be hard pressed to make a case for them.

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[–] Sashavidre 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago  (edited ago)

Thanks for the education. So apparently the Tanakh (Old Testament) is an ever present part of the Jewish religion, but a majority of Jews (Orthodox, Talmudic) prefer to study a long and convoluted history of debates, arguments, rulings, etc etc upon what anything in the Old Testamant / Tanakh actually means. To the point where, something can be interpreted as literally the opposite of what it says.

Yes I would say so.

I disagree "It's not a religion of principle or dying for what you believe in", Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego went willing to die for their beliefs. Abraham was willing to kill his son for his beliefs, Daniel faced death by lions for his beliefs.

In general I see Judaism as a relativist religion. There's no concept of ultimate truth that people are striving toward. The closest example I see to such a principle is matrilineal descent, which is racism. But again this emphasis of matrilineal descent is mostly a Talmudic creation, according to Exodus both hebrews and non hebrews were present in Exodus. The linchpin for motivating slaves to leave Egypt was an offering of milk and honey, not freedom, heaven or any kind of moral enlightenment. And many hebrews in spite of gaining freedom sought to return to slavery because it was a better bargain than starving in the desert.

The case of Abraham is unclear in my mind, but I agree that it's probably the clearest example for answering this question. I know there's at least one school of thought that suggests this was a failure on the part of Abraham, because he was unable to use critical thinking. He just blindly followed orders and after this event Isaac never spoke to him again. Also god sent an angel to communicate instead of speaking to Abraham himself.

In general I don't find any of the characters of the Old Testament particularly flattering or beyond rebuke. Most of them are perfectly willing to lie, become hypocrites or psychopaths. I will give credit in at least saying this is an honest reflection of humanity, though it's not something I would strive towards. It's debatable whether these traits are needed in society or not. A case that I particularly like thinking about is Joshua. He's considered a hero in Judaism, but his actions are just that of a psychopathic dictator. He broke many rules including Shabbat, because for him the ends justified the means. On the one hand I respect someone with the toughness to get things done, especially amongst inept apathetic weaklings as the Jews were. But clearly someone like Joshua cannot be trusted.

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[–] BlancoCanyon 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

Upright vegan defeated by evil meat-eating brother

Cain the farmer killed Abel the shepherd.

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[–] para_monk [S] 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

Thanks for the correction. I remembered the story wrong.

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[–] Ezekiel_Balderdash 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

It is a religion of self-inflicted misery.

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[–] DyudTyb 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

Yeah, well. Eternal victimhood. "Holocaust Industry" wasn't built on an empty place. It has strong cultural foundation. Behind it there are millenia of indoctrination, roleplaying and manipulation.

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[–] DyudTyb 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago  (edited ago)

Point well made.

What is hard to ignore is that all this thing is extremely neurotic. Unlike, for example, the Greco-Roman religions which were very human in comparison and taught you to celebrate life. Or Asian religions or quasi-religious schools of thought which teach you how to find meaning of life and be at peace with yourself.

It is hard for me to find any arguments why I, presented with a free choice, would had ever picked Judeo-Christianity among the other religions. It is a human-hating, self-disparaging, venomous, passively aggressive demotivating bullshit. Probably better in comparison only to Islam. But then - even islam, whatever else can be said about it, does not aim to make you a pathetic passive looser, which which a great plus.

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[–] 12011471 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

I would maintain that Christianity underpinned the best civilizations that the world has seen in the past 2,000 years. I think Christians are more open and inventive than Asians, more compassionate than Jews or Muslims, and get more done with less violence than traditional pagans in places like Africa and Latin America. There's the contemplative/at peace part, represented in particular by Catholic & Orthodox monastic traditions, but also the outward-looking missionary piece. Christians founded all the major universities in Western Europe. The idea of academic freedom has its origins in this foundation by an institution that's not a secular government. Universities/monasteries/etc also traditionally operated at least partly as a meritocracy, talent-spotting poor kids and giving them a chance to excel. This benefited everyone - society, by putting the smartest people in high places, and individuals, by helping them use their talents and find fulfillment personally. Christianity and particularly Western Christianity have just given so much to the world, it balances group needs with personal needs better than any other cultural setup I've seen.

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[–] Mjazz 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

Satan gets defeated.

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[–] Hello5 1 points -1 points (+0|-1) ago 

"Judeo-Christianity" is not a thing. It is a term used by Judaizers and outsiders, whether by ignorance or malice. Judaism (by name) was never a religion until recently. Judaism is the reverse of Christianity and has the same roots as all other arms of the Babylonian "Mystery" Religion".

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[–] para_monk [S] 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

I did it out of malice, I confess. I knew it would agitate both Christians and Jews if I threw them in the same boat together. In fact I did it as a bait and switch since I know Voat loves hating on Jews but wouldn't see the Christians part until after they clicked. It's a paradox if you ask me, how someone can dissociate their belief in Christ from the long prophesied coming of the Jewish messiah (was never actually supposed to happen by the way, it was just a thing to say to get people's juices flowing). There were so many self proclaimed messiahs around that time, I guess you could say the world had messiah fever. It wasn't until long after the supposed time of Jesus that some of the messiah stories started to coalesce and people convinced them selves that in fact the messiah had already come. And the rest as they say, is history.

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[–] Hello5 1 points -1 points (+0|-1) ago 

It doesn't agitate Jews; they're perfectly happy to have their "morals" covered by association with Christianity without having to accept Christ.

No one is dissociating Christ from the "long prophesied coming" of the Jewish Messiah. Jewish, in this sense, means the Messiah who would be born from the tribe of Judah. As soon as He came, the Old Testament religion was fulfilled. Talmudic "Judaism" is a deceptively named and completely different, opposite religion which is built on a bastardization of the scriptures.

So who was Jesus, "to you"?