9
50

[–] guy231 9 points 50 points (+59|-9) ago 

Many countries have universal health systems. They don't work in the way Paul describes. One way or another, governments fix prices for medical services and force everyone to get insurance. So the government wouldn't conscript him, they would fine him if he charged too much and maybe throw him in jail if he kept doing it.

Hypothetically you could even have a 'tiered' system that doesn't go that far, allowing private practitioners to charge above government rates.

[–] [deleted] 0 points 16 points (+16|-0) ago 

[Deleted]

4
-3

[–] Broc_Lia 4 points -3 points (+1|-4) ago 

or you can pay extra and get the thing done quicker.

Only you're less likely to be able to afford to because you have to pay for the free "place in a queue until you die" regardless whether you use it or not.

0
9

[–] y2imm 0 points 9 points (+9|-0) ago 

In a way they do, here in Canada. You work for the government ultimately, through various arms-length facades. They tell you where you'll work, how much you'll earn, what hours you'll work, etc. If you don't like it, you threaten to leave, or just leave.

Having said that, a doctors contract dwarfs a nurses, or a housekeepers, or just about anyone else in healthcare. They probably have a billing code for saying hello to you in the morning. They get paid for EVERYTHING! Picking up the phone on call, getting a sick note (a pre-printed note with a rubber-stamped signature, not covered by insurance), filling out one extra form pertaining to a patients care (covered by insurance), they rape the system well. Got a problem, they'll look after you. Got two problems? Sorry, that's two appointments, see my receptionist, fuck you very much. Need that appointment when? Sorry, I only work Tuesday afternoon, Thursday morning between 0930-1055, every other Wednesday (alternating morning and afternoons), etc...greedy fuckers sometimes.

0
6

[–] TheTrigger 0 points 6 points (+6|-0) ago  (edited ago)

↑Beat me to it by an hour. Doctors in Canada aren't exactly empoverished slaves, and we have the same system he's railing against.

Once you've been in the field for a while, you basically make your own hours and stack that paper, part-time. Not exactly a shitty deal.

0
1

[–] Broc_Lia 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

They tell you where you'll work, how much you'll earn, what hours you'll work, etc. If you don't like it, you threaten to leave, or just leave.

And this is why it fails. Command economies have been shown to fail over and over and over again.

Don't something like 1.1% of patients leave Canada for US hospitals rather than take the treatment they paid for?

3
2

[–] 84626433832795028841 3 points 2 points (+5|-3) ago 

Many countries have universal health systems. They don't work in the way Paul describes.

But that's how socialism works. At some point you run out of money to pay everyone including the doctors and all you have left is food stamps or the barrel of the gun.

6
-2

[–] TheTrigger 6 points -2 points (+4|-6) ago 

Uhh, no. I can't even argue with that level of ignorance. Like, at all. You're just wrong, that's all I can say. Read up on the way Canada does things, if you need saws.

11
24

[–] cynoclast 11 points 24 points (+35|-11) ago 

Yeah, those poor bastards slaving away making 310K under a single payer system.

http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Job=Family_Physician_%2F_Doctor/Salary

7
20

[–] Zekethephoenix 7 points 20 points (+27|-7) ago 

So many idiots on Voat who don't understand that universal healthcare isn't slavery. The doctors would still be making loads of money it would just be payed for with taxes rather than single payer. Other countries already have this system and it works just fine and doctors make plenty of money.

3
10

[–] un1ty 3 points 10 points (+13|-3) ago 

universal healthcare isn't FREE

People all over the USA are told day in and day out they'll get FREE healthcare. FREE.

it would just be payed for with taxes rather than single payer.

That's right - TAXES. Something that no one in this country wants to acknowledge is anytime anyone in the government says you're getting "XYZ for free" they're idiots. Nothing the government does or provides is free. Ever. It may appear to be free to the person receiving said XYZ without having to give something for it at that time, but I can guarantee someone somewhere else gave something for it.

Whenever the eurofag claims amerifags are so stupid for healthcare issues, I ask them what their going tax rate is. Typically anywhere from 40-50% is taken so they can have 'free' healthcare that is so great and so plentiful, the Dr's work extra jobs on the side.

0
2

[–] TheRealVladimirPutin 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago 

You are missing the point. The idea that a good or service is a right means that someone has to provide that good or service even if you can't pay them. Eventually people will stop working and producing for free. And this entitlement attitude will not end with healthcare. Is food a right? Is housing a right? Is clothing a right? Obviously you need those things before you need healthcare. You follow that logic and you end up with Soviet-style communism.

6
0

[–] jaceame 6 points 0 points (+6|-6) ago 

"Yeah but why would anyone ever be a doctor if they weren't making millions of dollars a year."

~The argument I have received from fairly depressing people.

0
4

[–] DeepFriedPickles 0 points 4 points (+4|-0) ago 

After the amount of work you have to go through to be a doctor and the importance of their job I'd say they easily deserve 310k.

2
0

[–] Broc_Lia 2 points 0 points (+2|-2) ago 

Plus, it's misleading. They make alot of money, but because of all the extra training and the short span of their career, their working lifetime is quite short. Plus they get taxed more because they have higher annual earnings, even if their lifetime earnings aren't that impressive compared to other professionals.

6
4

[–] jaceame 6 points 4 points (+10|-6) ago 

Their second home doesn't have it's own private beach. If that's not slavery I don't know what is.

0
2

[–] Broc_Lia 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago  (edited ago)

Slavery isn't based on how much or little you're compensated, it's based on whether or not you're obligated to labour for another person regardless of consent. Many slaves in the roman empire were educated and well off, but they were still undeniably slaves.

18
21

[–] dirkgently 18 points 21 points (+39|-18) ago 

That is a bullshit argument. He didn't go to the doctors and say, you have to treat who we say, or else. FFS Rand, just because someone has a right to something does not equal you being forced to treat them. My god the ignorance is astounding. Just like the fact that people have a rights to vote. Are we forcing people to work the polls, are we forcing these people against their will to help setup and run votes? Of course not, and doctors wont be forced to treat people against their will, it will work just like it always has. There will be a market, you will get paid, and if you don't fucking like it, find another line of work or choose different clients.

8
13

[–] EarlPoncho 8 points 13 points (+21|-8) ago 

you're missing the point. if you mandate healthcare you also need to mandate x amount of people to become health professionals. since there's not currently enough health professionals to meet demand, you would have to force people like rand to do things that they may not necessarily want to do.

5
3

[–] doompie 5 points 3 points (+8|-5) ago 

you also need to mandate x amount of people to become health professionals. since there's not currently enough health professionals to meet demand, you would have to force people like rand to do things that they may not necessarily want to do.

No you just offer better incentives until sufficient numbers of people choose it. That is to say: positive coercion (e.g. higher wages), but that's exactly the same principle by which capitalism works.

2
1

[–] dirkgently 2 points 1 points (+3|-2) ago  (edited ago)

I don't think that's going to be the case. If you forced doctors to give care with wages so low you'll end up with doctors leaving the profession or finding creative ways to specialize but this is all hypothetical anyway. There are too many ifs involved and would likely would work itself out with either a revolt and more accurate pay, or doctors quit and there aren't enough resulting in Americans getting pissed and change happens, etc. Also if you really want to pay for not only healthcare for all, but basic college education, the government is going to have cut some of the bullshit spending.

3
8

[–] PIcasso54 3 points 8 points (+11|-3) ago  (edited ago)

You're full of shit. The government forces you to take their cases despite what you want. If a patient comes to you wanting treatment, you no longer have the option to refuse service to that person because they have government backed insurance. It's absurd how you don't understand how this works.

@lissencarak has an amazing point.

1
12

[–] MCVoat 1 points 12 points (+13|-1) ago 

No idea what this is all about but the woman behind Paul looks like she's the one that got BTFO.

5
9

[–] Broc_Lia 5 points 9 points (+14|-5) ago 

He's talking about positive vs. negative rights. A positive right is where someone is obliged to take action, whereas a negative right is one where they're obliged not to.

For example, free speech and gun rights are negative rights. The government is obliged not to restrict people from owning arms or speaking out, but they don't have to give them weapons or a platform to speak. Sanders' healthcare proposals are positive rights, in that they require other people to labour to provide for the person who deserves them.

In reality, this won't mean physicians working for free, it'll mean everyone having a certain portion of their labour confiscated to provide these "rights."

2
5

[–] Gorhbak 2 points 5 points (+7|-2) ago  (edited ago)

Well not everyone needs healthcare everyday hmmm.... FOOD I need food everyday it should be a right too and why should I pay even 1 cent for water, water should be a right too oh and HOMES I should be given a place to live that should be a right....

11
9

[–] Quawonk 11 points 9 points (+20|-11) ago  (edited ago)

Yeah, cuz that how it happens in Canada and the rest of the civilised world. What a fucking idiot.

1
10

[–] vuke69 1 points 10 points (+11|-1) ago 

75% of Canadians have supplemental private health insurance. Why is that necessary if their system is so wonderful?

2
2

[–] jaceame 2 points 2 points (+4|-2) ago 

We don't have non life altering dental, several types of therapy, or most prescription drugs covered by the government plan. Thus there is an insurance market for everything else.

7
-2

[–] jaceame 7 points -2 points (+5|-7) ago 

In all major Canadian cities medicine ghettos where all the medical related workers are forced to live so that the government can call on them at any time. Oh wait that is stupid and not true.

7
5

[–] lissencarak 7 points 5 points (+12|-7) ago 

Rand is right in more ways than one. Read on doctors in the USSR, but read it from people, not the official propaganda. Most were unskilled drunks who killed more people than they saved; the rest were in that career out of pure altruism and had to drink because they didn't have the tech or research to do anything but the most basic of treatments.

3
4

[–] EarlPoncho 3 points 4 points (+7|-3) ago 

that's the problem with mandated health care. you have to have a certain percentage of the population get into medicine. that means you need government mandates forcing people who may not even want to become doctors, nurses, etc to go into that profession. rand is right in his assertion that it is slavery

2
2

[–] Pawn 2 points 2 points (+4|-2) ago 

shit with this economy, train me to become a doctor and I'll doctor. I need the $$$$$

0
4

[–] peacegnome 0 points 4 points (+4|-0) ago 

Wow, very few in here actually understand what rand is saying. A "right" is something that has to happen (or not happen depending on the right). So if healthcare is a "right" then any time someone needs healthcare then a doctor must help them, if they refuse then they are trampling the rights of the person needing help.

He is not saying that single payer, or universal healthcare is bad (although he dislikes both that is not what this quote is about); he is only saying that BS shouldn't be using the word "right" to mean "something that would be nice and what we should strive for".

3
4

[–] jaceame 3 points 4 points (+7|-3) ago 

I have a right to bear arms does that mean that there has to be a gun store open at all times? Does it mean that not selling me a gun is a criminal offence? Are all gun store owners legally obligated to sell me a gun no matter the situation?

1
5

[–] Truly 1 points 5 points (+6|-1) ago 

I think this is a different scenario. You don't have a right to a gun, you have the right to buy guns. Today healthcare and guns are on an even footing. If an amendment were passed saying everyone is entitled to X number of guns, then it would be closer to a good analogy.

Rand's argument might still be weak, I haven't been convinced either way yet, but your analogy is off.

3
0

[–] jaceame 3 points 0 points (+3|-3) ago 

I recognize the problem with my argument and you make a good point. It would be best for me to say "If the right to bear arms were to be treated like a right to healthcare a the government would have to produce firearms based on the need of the people." To best conform to the reality of the situation.

On the flip side Rand's argument really is terrible. As a Canadian whom has been to the doctor before I can say they are not slaves. A doctor is not forced to work; they can go elsewhere, retire, or enter other fields as they feel. The government just pays doctors through taxes and holds little to now power over controlling their actual lives. This could be viewed as un-capitalistic because the government is controlling a commodities but capitalism is mostly been dead of a good while now.

0
1

[–] Broc_Lia 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

Negative rights and positive rights are two completely different things. You should learn the difference if you want to take part in a conversation about them.

load more comments ▼ (17 remaining)