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[–] flyawayhigh 13 points 76 points (+89|-13) ago  (edited ago)

Sanders manages to demonstrate a hodgepodge of nativist, nationalist, protectionist, and socialist sentiments.

This is the criticism of some ideological purist who expects and supports a sudden total transformation to a simplistic and idealized system that could never work -- not to mention the impossibility of transition itself -- whether that be capitalism, communism, nationalism, socialism, etc. All ideologies are bad and some are worse than others.

Despite the "socialist" label here, what Bernie is actually exhibiting is practicality. I know practicality is complicated, and it seems to be some sort of confusion or hypocrisy to the simplistic ideological purists. But all it means is we look at the world and make changes that will actually work to achieve goals -- situation by situation -- without some cloud of ideological bias overlaying everything.

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[–] flyboy88 8 points 9 points (+17|-8) ago 

I love you

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[–] syllovespan 4 points 7 points (+11|-4) ago 

Well put, thank you.

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[–] Broc_Lia 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

This is the criticism of some ideological purist who expects and supports a sudden total transformation to a simplistic and idealized system that could never work.

More accurately, it's the criticism of someone who recognises a really dangerous mixture of dodgy political ideas when they see one.

There is nothing practical about protectionism when it comes to economics. It's bad for everyone involved, even, eventually, the ones being protected from competition.

[–] [deleted] 9 points -2 points (+7|-9) ago  (edited ago)

[Deleted]

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[–] HappyExile 1 points 16 points (+17|-1) ago 

What the hell are you talking about? Being pragmatic means you belief in unlimited government power? How? One thing does not follow from the other.

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[–] HighlandValley 1 points 2 points (+3|-1) ago 

Government works because the ideologues are always pulling against each other, and eventually they compromise. We want a slow, clunky, inefficient government that struggles to get things done. Governments that can get things done will only ever grow exponentially and take away freedoms.

Someone whose ideology is pragmatism is essentially saying that they want "progress," however arbitrary that is. They're quick to compromise and they just want to pass bills to apparently tick items off their list. I don't know what law of nature says that government needs to be some sort of evolving beast - the scope of the government of the late 1700s was generally fine. Yes, they got some things totally wrong (slavery, westward expansion), but the size of the operation didn't show a self-evident need for "progress." If "all men are created equal" was taken to include blacks, natives, and women, there was nothing obviously lacking such that we'd definitely end up with the same type of government we have now.

[–] [deleted] 1 points 0 points (+1|-1) ago  (edited ago)

[Deleted]

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[–] Keftedes89 3 points 19 points (+22|-3) ago  (edited ago)

Wow, I didn't expect to agree with him on all points except for the minimum wage and tuition fees.

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[–] CamillaBok 3 points 18 points (+21|-3) ago 

Keep digging. He's been saying the exact same stuff for 40 years. I'm more of a Warren supporter and thought Bernie was "too far left" to be president. Then I started listening to his videos and now I think he's a better candidate than Warren would be.

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[–] novictim 0 points 7 points (+7|-0) ago  (edited ago)

I'm more of a Warren

So are most of us but Warren is NOT running and has discouragingly thrown her weight behind Hilary Clinton...(it should give you pause that a financial sector/Wall Street (supposed) hawk backs Clinton).

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[–] HoneyNutStallmans 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

tuition fees.

Germany would like a word with you.

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[–] Devildetails 1 points -1 points (+0|-1) ago 

In time you'll agree on those too.

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[–] brother_tempus 12 points 9 points (+21|-12) ago 

“Open borders? No, that’s a Koch brothers proposal,” Sanders said. “That’s a right-wing proposal, which says essentially there is no United States.”

It would make everybody in America poorer — you’re doing away with the concept of a nation state, and I don’t think there’s any country in the world that believes in that,” Sanders said. “If you believe in a nation state or in a country called the United States or (the United Kingdom) or Denmark or any other country, you have an obligation in my view to do everything we can to help poor people.

In just a few sentences, Sanders manages to demonstrate a hodgepodge of nativist, nationalist, protectionist, and socialist sentiments. But for anyone wondering why he wandered off the progressive narrative on immigration, it’s because protectionist labor unions pay him better than, say, La Raza.

If Bernie Sanders sounds like Donald Trump when it comes to “taking our jobs,” consider that both are statists who reflect the widely and deeply held belief that nations are defined by states. This may be an uncomfortable reality for libertarians, but it is reality nonetheless.

National borders by definition are political boundaries. They mark the edge of a particular territory over which a political entity — a state — claims exclusive jurisdiction.

Since political borders require states, “open borders” is an oxymoron. Nothing controlled by government is “open,” whether we’re talking about the New York City taxi market or federal ethanol subsidies or the Brownsville, Texas border bridge.

Open borders can exist only if states do not exist. States require borders because they are defined by borders.

So from the statist perspective, Sanders is right: you can’t have large centralized states and unregulated borders, because those borders are at the heart of the state’s identity and its raison d’etre: control. The political technocrats who run modern nation-states have zero incentive to cede control over the flow of humans entering (or in some cases leaving) their territories. If anything, THE POLITICAL IMPULSE IS EVER AND ALWAYS TO EXPAND THE STATE'S ZONE OF CONTROL BY PUSHING BORDERS OUTWARD ( WAR )

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[–] TropicalJupiter 7 points 8 points (+15|-7) ago 

"nativist, nationalist, protectionist, and socialist"

You're just labeling him. Was making a point too much work?

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[–] rationalinquisition 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

You speak well. I bet you would kill it on the LSAT.

[–] [deleted] 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

[Deleted]

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[–] Malphius 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago  (edited ago)

Here is just one piece of evidence. This is a program that gives temporary work Visas called H-1B. The short of it is that American companies are bringing in immigrants via the H-1B program, having the US workers train them and then firing the American workers while paying the immigrants less $$$. If you want the long of it here is an article or google and inform yourself. http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/02/silicon-valley-h1b-visas-hurt-tech-workers http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2013/04/03/176134694/Whos-Hiring-H1-B-Visa-Workers-Its-Not-Who-You-Might-Think http://www.it.slashdot.org/story/15/04/29/2146247/disney-replaces-longtime-it-staff-with-h-1b-workers

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[–] brother_tempus 2 points -1 points (+1|-2) ago 

Why do you believe this?

I don't .. Sanders does ... you reading comprehension is subpar

"It would make everybody in America poorer — you’re doing away with the concept of a nation state, and I don’t think there’s any country in the world that believes in that,” SANDERS SAID

[–] [deleted] 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

[Deleted]

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[–] brother_tempus 3 points -1 points (+2|-3) ago 

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[–] Malphius 7 points 7 points (+14|-7) ago 

You can't have open borders. That's simply ridiculous. I can't believe people support this. Dumb people need to quit breeding dumb people.

[–] [deleted] 3 points 3 points (+6|-3) ago 

[Deleted]

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[–] Malphius 2 points 0 points (+2|-2) ago 

I do realize this. It's still a bad idea in the current climate. This would only be a good idea if your neighbors are as developed culturally and economically as well as you. This is obviously not the case here.

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[–] Broc_Lia 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

You can't have open borders.

Why not?

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[–] Malphius 1 points -1 points (+0|-1) ago 

I've already stated why.

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[–] revanyo 2 points -2 points (+0|-2) ago 

But I thought it was racist to have a secure border? Right?

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[–] Malphius 1 points -1 points (+0|-1) ago 

It's not and I've never said that.

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[–] novictim 4 points 6 points (+10|-4) ago  (edited ago)

Bernie Sanders displays the kind of common sense and common decency that has been missing from the progressive left for decades now.

It is obvious that the wealthiest industrialists have always wanted an unlimited supply of cheap skilled and unskilled labor so that the cost of labor can be driven down to the absolute minimum. Worker wages at all levels are on the oligarchs chopping block and that is why the border is allowed to be so porous and that H1B Visa Programs are ever expanding so as to lower the wages from the top and from the bottom.

So how is it that the so called "Progressive Left" leadership has chosen to support such policies which they euphemistically characterize as "Supporting Diversity"?

Bernie or Trump? I'm going with Bernie in 2016. I will NEVER EVER EVER vote for Hillary Clinton or Jeb Bush or Scot Walker.

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[–] Broc_Lia 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

There's multiple options here:

  • A Abolish the minimum wage and make american labour competitive again

  • B Allow foreign workers in to fill the jobs americans aren't permitted to

  • C Allow companies to go overseas to fill the jobs americans aren't permitted to (the current strategy)

  • D None of the above, american companies cease to be competitive and are replaced by foreign companies using foreign labour

  • E Same as D, but artificially generate demand for american labour by raising tariffs on imports. America falls behind the rest of the world and loses relevance, it's standard of living reduces as that of third world nations rises

Note that nowhere on that list does the option appear to: "Cut off immigration and raise the minimum wage. The whole world simultaneously suffers a nervous breakdown and decides to buy overpriced products from the US instead of cheaper ones from just about everywhere else."

And that's not even approaching the ethical consideration of whether a government has the right to create these kinds of oligopolies in the first place.

Bernie or Trump? I'm going with Bernie in 2016. I will NEVER EVER EVER vote for Hillary Clinton or Jeb Bush or Scot Walker.

You might not have that choice. Without the STV there's a good chance you won't have the option to vote for Sanders at all.

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[–] novictim 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

You have drunk deep from the ideology of those now running Americas right wing economic think tanks and establishment economics.

"A Abolish the minimum wage and make american labour competitive again"

Why? Nations are not corporations. You simply don't understand the nature of power and the reason for the current distribution of wealth to the top.

Don't respond. History sits their staring you in the face and yet you don;t question your assumptions.

You have nothing worth saying on this topic.

You don't have the slightest understanding of the problem of Capitalism and Consumption. Those words are a mystery to you.

Your entire post is exactly what we should all know, at long last, is NOT NOT NOT correct and not the path to follow now that we know better.

"american companies cease to be competitive " Wrong. When you hold a monopoly then the notion of competition and supply and demand cease to be relevant. Tariffs were EXACTLY how the USA gained dominance and the growth of the middle-class. That is history, not ideology. Fuck your zombie ideology.

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[–] revanyo 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

Why not Scott Walker? I'm not disagreeing with you and have my concerns about him and would like to hear yours.

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[–] novictim 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

He's a union busting, corporatist recipe for our national slide to the bottom.

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[–] indiglo_girls 8 points 6 points (+14|-8) ago 

...And he is utterly wrong.

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[–] lgnsoul 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

What did he say that was wrong? What are your thoughts?

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[–] Truthiness79 1 points 0 points (+1|-1) ago  (edited ago)

A lot of people are turning on Bernie Sanders because he came out against open borders. The wealthy donors on both the left and right all supporting this monstrosity still doesnt convince them thats its about Big Business not wanting to pay Americans market wages, and suppressing natural income raises by flooding the low-skill labor market with illegals.

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[–] surprisecockfag 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

[–] [deleted] 0 points 4 points (+4|-0) ago 

[Deleted]

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[–] idrinkamp 1 points 0 points (+1|-1) ago 

They are the "boogie men". The hilarious part, is that they are pretty far down the list as far as size of political contributors

https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php

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[–] SpiceRunner 0 points 4 points (+4|-0) ago 

Here's a link to the full Interview

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