[–] Podd 1 points 22 points (+23|-1) ago 

Socialist have a great misunderstanding about how their programs are funded. They believe that the state is a benevolent entity which robs from the rich (they qualify this as 'paying their far share' because the state is good and doesn't coerce compliance via force or threat; rich people are just evil) and gives to the poor who are always good and hardworking people who, gosh darned it, can't get a break. That's if their programs are even half way based in reality and honestly admit tax payers are the purse.

Often, I find myself debating these people on issues like Universal Basic Income. Their belief is that if we gave every man and women 12k as a base income and that anything you make over that is yours. However, what happens to those who produce over that 12k income. Our country is saying a few trillion dollars of our budget is going to UBI so how do we make up for that expense. I tell them we'd be taxed at a minimum 40% and going upwards to 90%. Do they honestly expect the majority (the overwhelming majority) to work 40+ hour weeks and have their paychecks aborted by a high tax rate? Do you honestly believe me, as a business owner, am going to make investments for growth when any growth i make is gobbled up but I still have all the risk?

Their counter is that I will still have my 12k. Big whoopity fucking doo. People are not motivated to be doing just as well as the fucking ne'er-do-wells while putting in 1000000x the work. Are farmers going to farm for the mere enjoyment of you suckling his teets while his body breaks down after years of hard labor? No. Is the welder and construction going to build your cities while putting their health and lives at risk for the satisfaction of it? No. A minority might. The government might use force. Most will head towards idleness like all the other takers.

In the end growth will shrink, money will dry up, and the system will fail.

They like to point out the Scandinavian socialist countries as examples of success. "How long will that last?" I tell them. When they were small, homogenous societies it may have had some success, but how quickly will the system collapse when the group of takers, who care not for their fellow countrymen, begin to swell.

[–] the_sharpest_knife 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago 

How do you cope with the USA already having so much socialism?

I 100% agree socialism is unreasonable until with have star trek style replicators. I think these people are living in a fantasy world until then.

[–] Podd 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

I bitch about it but accept it so long as I still have economic mobility and freedom. Probably the same as most working Americans.

[–] Ghetto_Shitlord 1 points 0 points (+1|-1) ago 

But the rich robbing you at your job is ok.

[–] hang_em_high 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago 

So fucking quit then.

[–] Mylon 2 points -1 points (+1|-2) ago  (edited ago)

[–] Mylon 5 points 0 points (+5|-5) ago 

The most significant advantage of UBI is eliminating the waste and bureaucracy of existing welfare programs. Instead of giving the poor section 8 housing, EBT cards, and Obama phones, they get a check they can spend as they wish. This allows them to purchase what they value and at free market rates, rather than the rates charged by government contractors.

The second biggest advantage is welfare cliffs. Many programs vanish as soon as recipients get a part time time at McDonald's. Or if they have as much as a single rent payment ahead in their savings account. Or if they haven't spent hours attending workshops that interrupt their job search. This means these programs are explicitly designed to keep the poor poor. UBI eliminates this by ensuring they don't have to follow a bunch of bullshit rules.

The third biggest advantage is entrepreneurship. Most businesses are started by people that have a significant family safety net that allows them to recover if they fail. UBI would be that safety net that allows people to explore providing new products and services instead of flipping burgers for minimum wage.

The fourth reason: It's inevitable. The truth of the matter is that robots are coming for your jobs. Look at Japan and South Korea: They spend more time signaling their loyalty to their job or worthiness to have the job that they have no time to live and their wages suck because there isn't enough real work to do. We're already following their footsteps by asking kids to get expensive college degrees for jobs that don't really require them and it's going to get worse. Opportunity is getting worse and there just aren't enough well paid jobs as before.

The Fifth reason: History. We were at the exact same crossroads back in the 1930s. When the combine harvester had taken all of the good jobs and pushed most of the population into wage slavery, many countries revolted against the oppression of capitalism and chose communism. The United States and Germany, to thwart this threat, shifted towards socialism. The US New Deal was a significant part of staunching the growing communist sentiment.

How do we pay for it? https://www.reddit.com/r/basicincome/wiki/index#wiki_how_would_you_pay_for_it.3F Lots of other good info here as well.

[–] PraiseIPU 0 points 5 points (+5|-0) ago 

The third biggest advantage is entrepreneurship.

I agreed with this one for awhile. But then.

You are a product of your upbringing. Business leaders almost always came from a family that already had a business. If you have never seen a business owner and nobody in your neighborhood has either. There is an extremely high chance you will never even try to do anything different.

There are some outliers that will business no matter what. But the ubi would not inspire anyone to go business.

The welfare cliff is absoolutely a problem. The benefits should a person on full welfare would need to walk into a job at $20+ an hour. To replace the value of all the welfare.

But if we have a scaled system say for every 10% increase in income your benefits decrease by 5% well then there is incentive to increase your income.

[–] THEjohnnyrebel 1 points 1 points (+2|-1) ago 

If we gave each person in this country 1000$ a month (12k a year), with 320 million people in this country, it would cost 3.8 trillion a year, to continue the program for 10 years would add 38 TRILLION to our debt. WHO IS GOING TOBPAY FOR THAT?

[–] the_sharpest_knife 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago  (edited ago)

Hi. I'm an automation engineer. Robots are coming for your jobs but they haven't yet. Maybe someday when we're at 90%+ automation will UBI be feasible but until then asking for it early is just lazy.

We already have quite a bit of socialism in the USA. See do nothing government jobs and welfare.

[–] Hoensteingen 1 points 7 points (+8|-1) ago  (edited ago)

Well, looking at what happened to Socialist countries in Eastern Europe before 1992, there may be something that's isn't quite right about this

[–] Whitemail 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago 

they're (((scammers)))

[–] wonderfuldonut 2 points 6 points (+8|-2) ago 

no need to understand, just listen to the way they talk. They are whiners, they whine about everything. Most dont even know what they are whining about. Proof I once asked a protester about Marx, she looked at me blankly then spat at me, then abused me for being white.

[–] 300_Black 2 points 4 points (+6|-2) ago 

Socialism has worked before, though.

Look at National Socialist Germany.

Germany essentially going from a third world country to a superpower overnight.

[–] Acerphoon 0 points 5 points (+5|-0) ago 

This is what I hate about this. The person in the picture probably didn't even think about national socialist germany. He thought of communism.

Every socialist is a communist.
Every socialist is a globalist.
Every socialist wants to have 100 different welfare programs.

This is true in the eyes of the Ancap in question.

[–] olinneserpona 1 points 0 points (+1|-1) ago 

Socialism has many different meanings, but to most Americans it's the same as communism.

[–] Whitemail 1 points 2 points (+3|-1) ago  (edited ago)

Hitler describing what he meant by "socialism"

The Jewish Marxists hijacked the concept to mean things like giving people free stuff and everybody equal.

[–] edistojim 2 points 0 points (+2|-2) ago 

It worked so well what about them now? Case in point.

[–] 300_Black 0 points 4 points (+4|-0) ago 

Hitler's decisions had nothing to do with National Socialism as an economic system.

You have to look at it in isolation.

[–] Mylon 2 points -2 points (+0|-2) ago 

Germany's failure is the same reason "socialism has failed every time it's been tried". If it succeeds, it becomes an infections cancer upon the capitalists and thus they have to smash it everywhere it's found out of self preservation. This is why there's so much CIA interference in south America, for example. Germany had to be invaded to stop Socialism in the same way we had to invade Korea to stop Communism. It's all following the bidding of bankers to preserve the system.

[–] Whitemail 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago 

Modern socialist thinking:

College is expensive. The government should pay for it.

Medical bills are expensive. The government should pay for it, and we'll call it "insurance."

Meanwhile, they'll be opposing the evils of capitalism. By getting the government to hand over money for all this overpriced and over valued crap, you're just putting capitalism on steroids. Really, we need less people going to college. The people that go need to spend less time there. Volunteer work for training and simulated work situations would actually be more efficient. We could also set up learn-it-on-your-own systems where people are tested in a certain subject whenever they want to be tested.

Learn calculus limits on your own.

Go in for a test to prove you know it.

Receive a certification for it that's kind of like a college degree.

Move on to derivatives and so on.

When it comes to the medical field, we need to fix health before we start giving away free symptom-treatments for people who eat and drink a pound of sugar everyday. Perhaps a pay-for-it-yourself approach would make a lot more sense for people who want to eat and live terribly unhealthy lives. I think it'd be great if the government paid for accidents and some contagious diseases and the not-your-fault stuff.

[–] Deflo56 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

They are socialist because they are sheeple or wolves. The wolves are not taking care of their sheeple. They are ready to join the working herd. Welcome the transforming sheeple.

[–] Acerphoon 1 points 0 points (+1|-1) ago 

See, this is what I hate when socialism gets criticized. You maybe ask for something like Welfare - But you would have to do manual labor, while unemployed still and decorate the streets or something (Like the R.A.D in the third reich) which was a part of national socialism.

And yet, you would be thrown in with the communists, who were completely different.

Socialism is not always communism that killed 100 million people.

[–] kcamstar 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

Benji says it like a true politician... just ignore the obvious.