[–] [deleted] 44 points 86 points (+130|-44) ago 

[Deleted]

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[–] 51rH0n3y84d93r 24 points 35 points (+59|-24) ago  (edited ago)

Of course they had no effect. Perhaps we can bump the min wage to $20/hr, and once new automation comes out, you can chime in:

Those replacements were just around the corner regardless of any minimum wage increase. Your logical fallacy here is called "post hoc ergo propter hoc

Rinse, repeat.

[–] [deleted] 20 points 42 points (+62|-20) ago 

[Deleted]

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[–] sacofpotatoes 5 points 24 points (+29|-5) ago 

Personally I say we go to 100 an hour because that definitely won't incentivize companies to put money into figuring out how we can automate pretty much any task, I mean all the automations that come out after that were just around the corner anyways.

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[–] Proppa 1 points 4 points (+5|-1) ago  (edited ago)

Except it was officially announced in 2011 and has been in the works since at least 2004 which we can safely assume was first proposed at least a year or two previous to that...it really doesn't take a genius to think "hey, we could just turn the touch pad 180 degrees and get rid of half our employees" and frankly I'm amazed it didn't happen ten years ago. Other than that, yea totally legit point bro. Let's just make the default assumption that any and all automation or technological advancements are to screw the working class.

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[–] BotchedColonoscopy 0 points 13 points (+13|-0) ago 

Does anyone have the effective cost of these machines? (purchase cost + (maintenance costs * lifetime) ) Might want to attempt to factor in the expected change in customers/day as well, since some customers might like them more, and some less.

It would be interesting to know just how low an employee's wage would have to go before they could compete with these machines. I'd bet it'd be something on the order of $2.00/hr.

[–] [deleted] 3 points 16 points (+19|-3) ago 

[Deleted]

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[–] tomlinas 0 points 4 points (+4|-0) ago 

I don't think we have near enough data to know. Is it a capacitive touchscreen, or one of the older pressure / IR jobbys? How many pokes can it handle before it breaks? How often does it require TLC from the IT guy? What's the installation cost (I suspect that's a not-small fixed cost). As you pointed out, I think some people will not want to use them and others will prefer them so there's potentially a change in customer traffic. Is there a reduction in incorrect orders which results in less food wastage?

Robots and automated solutions aren't free labor -- yeah, they never get sick or quit, but on the flip side they break, their software breaks, and the humans they require to get back on track make a lot more than $15/hr.

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[–] SeanBox 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

I don't personally intend to use these. I have nothing lost by their introduction but I would prefer to know a person made money instead of a corporation from my purchase. I have no doubt there will be a movement one day but as it stands that is just an opinion.

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[–] redditrunbyfascists 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

It would be much less than $2.00/hr

electricity to run one of those kiosks is likely less than 1 kw/h, or ~$0.10.

So lets just say they cost ten cents an hour to operate.

Materials cost: $15k Software Dev: $3MM once plus $500k/year Maintenance: $1500/year

Lets say each machine runs 24/7.

$2.40 per day for electricity Software cost spread over 100,000 machines = $30 dev, $5/year recurring for ongoing support Maint = $1500/ year

Using these figures, the 1st year costs: $17,411 The second and future years cost: $2,381

Estimating a lifetime of 10 years for the hardware: $38,840

using an estimate here for meat machine costs:

http://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0711/the-cost-of-hiring-a-new-employee.aspx

a new employee has a turnover cost of $3,500.

Then $15/hr. Lets say they only work 8 hours a day 5 days a week. No holidays or sick days. EVER.

In ten years they cost: $316,357.14

what does it mean as an hourly wage though?

after the up front costs, in the second-tenth years, the machine costs $0.27/hour.

Now if you really want, you could make the machine only work the 8 hour shift to make a direct comparison to a meat machine, and end up just shy of $0.90/hour.

Bottom line, you are vastly over estimating using $2.00/hr, it's likely about 1/6th of that, and my estimates are worst case values in my opinion.

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[–] BoiseNTheHood 1 points 7 points (+8|-1) ago 

Mass automation is always just around the corner and never actually here.

Fun fact: according to the left, robots were supposed to take all our jobs away in the '50s. The fear and paranoia were so extreme that Congress actually formed a committee on automation and held hearings with experts, all of whom solemnly predicted doom for the economy. Unfortunately for the leftists, who were salivating at the opportunity to kick the New Deal into overdrive and turn everyone into wards of the state, the robot apocalypse never happened. The labor force would go on to increase by nearly 2% annually in the 1960s.

This was nothing new. Hell, Karl Marx whined about automatic looms putting hand-loom weavers out of work. The point is, every time technological progress happens during an uncertain economy, leftists start up with the doomsday warnings of robots taking our jobs in order to scare the masses into demanding even more socialism - and it never, ever comes to fruition.

The reality is that there are already things like mostly- and fully-automated factories, labor-replacing software, and automated farming in the world today. The results have always been new fields emerging to harness the new technology and widespread displacement into other lines of work, not permanent unemployment. This gets ignored because it doesn't advance the goals of subverting capitalism and turning everyone into dependent left-wing voters, but it's the truth.

Additionally, the private sector has actually cut back on investing in software over the last decade. For all the shrill cries of automation and the demands for basic income, the job-creators don't seem to be ready to kick us mere mortals to the curb anytime soon.

Your logical fallacy here is called the Luddite fallacy.

[–] [deleted] 3 points 0 points (+3|-3) ago 

[Deleted]

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[–] Reconn 0 points 4 points (+4|-0) ago 

Yeah, in economies of scale, labor quickly becomes the biggest drain on profits and fast food joints are essentially lean manufacturing environments. If you don't make the push for automation nowadays your company will quickly get out-competed by your competitors who do.

A MFG company in my town just replaced 400 workers with 20 machines. Those 20 machines were about 80k a piece (Thanks Taiwan); machines cost the company about $1.6M to buy and install. The average wage for those 400 workers was about $12 an hour-- ~$25,000 in salary per employee (not including benefits) was costing the company about $10M annually. These machines do about 4x as much production volume per shift as the employees were doing and will never ask for raises.

For a company as large as McDonald's, its an absolute no-brainer to move to automation, even if the machines only do a 1:1 labor conversion rate (likely much higher), the simple fact that the machines will never be sick, late, pregnant, or otherwise-- will STILL save the company loads of money. They'll be able to cut accounting costs and accountants down by the truckload. I'm really surprised they haven't pushed for it sooner.

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[–] TimberWolfAlpha 0 points 33 points (+33|-0) ago 

Cool, I love not having to interact with cashiers.

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[–] 2drunk2stand 4 points 18 points (+22|-4) ago 

Less feces on my food, down side?/s

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[–] SuperConductiveRabbi 0 points 20 points (+20|-0) ago 

The cashiers don't touch the food. But don't touch your eyes or your face after interacting with those touchscreens, because if the typical McDonalds clientele is any indication, you'll instantly get a double case of pinkeye.

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[–] RedLeader 0 points 4 points (+4|-0) ago 

McDonald's is pretty gross regardless if you wanna go the germs route. Everything in those stores is touched by these people, too.

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[–] BannedFromVoat_wtf 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

Yea I always use my knuckle on buttons/screens in public.

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[–] lissencarak 6 points 16 points (+22|-6) ago 

On the upside, now you don't have to deal with the (mostly black) dredges of society.

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[–] ginx2666 1 points 3 points (+4|-1) ago 

Never had a problem with black cashiers.

Niggers that start shit in queues though...

[–] [deleted] 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

[Deleted]

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[–] 123_456 3 points 1 points (+4|-3) ago  (edited ago)

I never had any problems with black people, except in elementary school, and high school. After that it was okay. No problems. Don't know if I can count school though, since a lot of people were jerks really. I actually find the trouble markers to be Russian, and Eastern Europe. I feel like black people unfairly get a bad rap because they're in the news so much. They stick out. When it's white people you just don't keep a tally of that. I mean, there's this white guy going around molesting people, and this hardly made a blip on the news. The news likes to emphasize racial differences because it plays into the stereotypes that TV watchers have.

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[–] lissencarak 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

Sadly yes, when I was young and poor. I haven't been on a (for example) greyhound in many a year.

It is probably worse now, though.

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[–] FlameWolfy 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

You're racist. Nice. I've had many cashiers that are complete shit from all colors. It's just a shitty job

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[–] lissencarak 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

Completely shit people appear in all populations.

It's only the percentages that differ.

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[–] Iamcheesebread 3 points 9 points (+12|-3) ago 

Cheap subsidized labor should never be used as a justification to inhibit progress.

Here's the deal I keep bringing up, it doesn't matter what you pay these people, it could be $2 an hour for as far as I care. At the end of the day when they can't afford to feed themselves and put a roof over their head we will, in the form of welfare. The minimum wage going to $15 is a good thing, what isn't a good thing is the lack welfare reform. Welfare is solely responsible for stagnate wages in this country, you can accept that $7 an hour job because you still can make rent, buy food and put gas in your car because the government picks up the rest. Either way I don't want my taxes being used to pay for your cheap fast food. I don't care if a bigmac ends up costing $7 after this hike, in the end, my taxes aren't being used to prop up your cheap shitty food.

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[–] gota_party 2 points 3 points (+5|-2) ago 

It's a lot easier to feed yourself if you don't have to pay someone $15/hour to ask if you want fries with it.

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[–] Iamcheesebread 0 points 6 points (+6|-0) ago 

I rather lose 10 minimum wage burger jobs and gain 4 skilled labor positions that design, build, program, install and service these machines.

The counter logic is throw away all the big agriculture machines and hire massive amounts of human labor. Or how about earth moving, mining, coal extraction, shipyards and logging. This is progress.

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[–] Broc_Lia 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago 

Welfare is solely responsible for stagnate wages in this country, you can accept that $7 an hour job because you still can make rent, buy food and put gas in your car because the government picks up the rest.

People accept $7 an hour jobs because they're the only ones going. If there's a $15 an hour job available then they'll take it. Wages have stagnated because the US went from a position of having an industrial monopoly to coming under heavy competition. There is nothing they could have done to avoid this other than to periodically bomb the second world into oblivion.

Either way I don't want my taxes being used to pay for your cheap fast food. I don't care if a bigmac ends up costing $7 after this hike, in the end, my taxes aren't being used to prop up your cheap shitty food.

Which would be great if this only affected fast food, but it doesn't. It affects any job which is currently valued at less than ~$16 per hour. This will push up the cost of almost everything.

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[–] hypercat 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

I was under the impression that there is a limit on how long you can get welfare. 2 years in a row and 5 years lifetime.

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[–] TigrisMorte 0 points 6 points (+6|-0) ago 

if the wage were $1.00 per hour result would be the same. All Non-creative jobs are soon to vanish. But with 66% of the economy being consumer spending if robots have all the jobs the economy fails.

But idiots shall claim it was poor people getting a living wage that caused it every inch of the way.

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[–] armday2day 1 points 2 points (+3|-1) ago 

The issue isn't the inevitability of automation. The issue is that when governments distort markets, they create incentives for sectors of the economy to make cost-cutting advancements while other sectors are unable to adapt as quickly.

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[–] Feldheld 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

if the wage were $1.00 per hour result would be the same.

Bull. Shit.

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[–] 123_456 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

If the wages were $1.00 an hour nobody would take up those jobs.

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[–] dannyduchamp 1 points 6 points (+7|-1) ago 

Any job that can be done by a machine - should be.

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[–] Broc_Lia 4 points -3 points (+1|-4) ago 

Even if by doing so, the product would then only be affordable by a handful of people?

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[–] Omnipresent 0 points 3 points (+3|-0) ago 

Eventually, the price of the product will lower so more can afford it.

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[–] dannyduchamp 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago 

That's not a realistic concern.

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[–] Apathy 2 points 5 points (+7|-2) ago 

The point of the $15 minimum wage was to justify automating everything. It also has the added benefit of putting small businesses out of business since only the large corporations can afford automation, so less competition for them to deal with. It was going to happen regardless, but now there's no backlash.

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