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[–] jervybingly 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago 

These people really don't like Bernie Sanders. I wonder why.

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[–] Agedwithaview 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago 

not sure - could be trolls.....if anything, this kind of vehemence tends to make me think that if they are this fearful maybe I should be studying Bernie more, maybe send him some money.....

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[–] brother_tempus 1 points 2 points (+3|-1) ago 

In response to Sander's 12-point plan which support Mr. hedges statement on Bernie's complicity to the staus-quo in DC ( which marches to the drumbeat of left-wing authoritarianism )

1 We have too much infrastructure now that we cannot afford. This is why it is crumbling. FDR and Eisenhower created a bubble in infrastructure from which we will never recover. With an $18 trillion dollar debt, we cannot afford what we have now much less repair it. All this is is a subsidy to the public unions at the cost of prosperity to the American taxpayer. The solution is to sell off what the states cannot afford and let the private sector take it over without having to tax anyone for maintenance.

2 As we have seen with the parade of bankruptcies with green energy companies despite receiving subsidies like the oil companies from the government, alternative energy is not ready for prime time and is nowhere close to prime time. The Europeans are learning this which is why countries like Germany are building 10 new coal plants because the promises made about alternative energy have not materialized nor will they for the foreseeable future. And again this is just a subsidy for special interest industries at the cost of prosperity for the tax payer bot in taxes taken and prices paid for their energy bills.

3 There are over a dozen programs now to help workers and everyone of them has failed. before you add anything new ( which the federal government shouldn't since there is no authorization for such policies in the Constitution ) , scrap what has failed first.

4 Unions already have it easy with laws that force non-union members to pay union dues anyways and programs in most states that preclude state governments and related industries from hiring non-union labor. besides as we have seen with the manufacturing centres, the automotive industries and recently Hostess .. unions kill businesses and job, they do note create any new jobs .

5 The goal of the minimum wage is to outlaw low paying jobs for the unskilled and inexperienced. The law, simply, says: it is illegal, and therefore criminal, for anyone to hire anyone else below the level of X dollars an hour. This means, plainly and simply, that a large number of free and voluntary wage contracts are now outlawed and hence that there will be a large amount of unemployment. Remember that the minimum wage law provides no jobs; it only outlaws them; and outlawed jobs ( unemployment ) are the inevitable result.

6 Pay should be determined by merit not by gender

7 This is a government-created problems since you cannot have trade agreements without protecting special interests .... The easiest thing to do is revoke all trade treaties and let businesses trade with whom they want without any government interference

8 Until you remove the money the government is pumping into the education industry ( like it did in the housing industry until the government-created bubble popped) you will never get prices to lower for education. That means revoking Title IV, Pell Grants and other loans, entitlements, and subsidies

9 Won't happen until you break up the Federal Reserve, it is the biggest bank there is and it supports all the other banks under it.

10 So we can go the way of France and have death panels .. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/13/terminally-ill-allowed-to-be-put-into-deep-sleep-u/ .... Pass on that bullshit

11 These programs already consume nearly 2/3rd of the budget and are bankrupting the nation and show no signs of success. Adding more debt to the $18 trillion dollar debt we currently have is only going to get the US downgraded and making the interest on the debt be the biggest expense in the budget

12 I can support this if it is simplified and taxes lowered so people can keep more of their own money and then grow the economy instead of allowing government to steal it and flush it down an incinerator of deficit spending

Bernie's plans are not original and history has shown them to never work ... but the "fell good" message he peddles selling this failed ideas makes him a very dangerous snakeoil salesman and no different that Hillary Clinton or Jeb Bush

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[–] Darcstar_ 0 points 8 points (+8|-0) ago 

This reply is posted in almost every Bernie Sanders thread. It's complete nonsense. Too much infrastructure we cannot afford? Please tell me more about how adequate our infrastructure is and about how funding more is unnecessary.

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[–] brother_tempus 2 points 0 points (+2|-2) ago 

This reply is posted in almost every Bernie Sanders thread.

And yet no one in the Sanders Cult can disprove it every-time they spam a Sanders bowel movement on Voat

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[–] darkciel 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago  (edited ago)

I'm assuming you are talking about the 12 step agenda here and the Mr. Hedges you mention is this man here

In response to Sander's 12-point plan which support Mr. hedges statement on Bernie's complicity to the staus-quo in DC ( which marches to the drumbeat of left-wing authoritarianism )

I do not understand why working with the governmental system in place is a bad thing.

1 We have too much infrastructure now that we cannot afford. This is why it is crumbling. FDR and Eisenhower created a bubble in infrastructure from which we will never recover. With an $18 trillion dollar debt, we cannot afford what we have now much less repair it. All this is is a subsidy to the public unions at the cost of prosperity to the American taxpayer.

So what is the solution to solving the infrastructure problem? Let the roads crumble, the bridges fall and the public water treatment dissolve? Any country that does not maintain its infrastructure do so because they are too poor to maintain them but the US has been growing economically and the current economy would be based on the infrastructure that it has and if anything, it should be expanded upon with the growing population.

The solution is to sell off what the states cannot afford and let the private sector take it over without having to tax anyone for maintenance.

And how is privatization of public works going? Private prisons, private educational testing are a failure. They worm their way into the government process with corruption and bribery. How many judges get money from the private prisons to keep it at capacity? What about the company that handles national testing that is failing to not only improve the quality of education but hinders it?

2 As we have seen with the parade of bankruptcies with green energy companies despite receiving subsidies like the oil companies from the government, alternative energy is not ready for prime time and is nowhere close to prime time.

Failure is the constant companion to development of the future. Alternative energy is not ready. That is true. But what is the solution then? The planet is going through rapid changes that may as well be irreversible soon. We are running out of fossil fuels, you are blackmailed by foreign nations who have a stranglehold on the market. We are taking a limited resource out of the ground and killing the atmosphere with it. Simply saying its not ready and no longer investing into it isn't a solution.

The Europeans are learning this which is why countries like Germany are building 10 new coal plants because the promises made about alternative energy have not materialized nor will they for the foreseeable future.

Sorry but source? This states that they are mothballing coal plants This isn't as good of a source, but it has nice graphs showing that renewables have been growing while the others have been maintained

And again this is just a subsidy for special interest industries at the cost of prosperity for the tax payer bot in taxes taken and prices paid for their energy bills.

'special interest industries' - Can you explain this?

3 There are over a dozen programs now to help workers and everyone of them has failed. before you add anything new ( which the federal government shouldn't since there is no authorization for such policies in the Constitution ) , scrap what has failed first.

Are you agreeing with what Sanders? His plan is to remove the tax breaks for the big corporations and talks about a possible worker-owned cooperative. So are you saying that he should remove the tax breaks? If so, I agree. The tax breaks gotta go.

4 Unions already have it easy with laws that force non-union members to pay union dues anyways and programs in most states that preclude state governments and related industries from hiring non-union labor. besides as we have seen with the manufacturing centres, the automotive industries and recently Hostess .. unions kill businesses and job, they do note create any new jobs.

I feel like we disagree at a fundamental level about unions. Perhaps I'm clouded with a disdain for private corporations, but unions are not a bad thing. Walmart employees tried to form a union to allow themselves to have a living wage and now news on that is dead. Big corporations have no interest in human decency for the workers. For this, I will just agree to disagree.

5 The goal of the minimum wage is to outlaw low paying jobs for the unskilled and inexperienced. The law, simply, says: it is illegal, and therefore criminal, for anyone to hire anyone else below the level of X dollars an hour. This means, plainly and simply, that a large number of free and voluntary wage contracts are now outlawed and hence that there will be a large amount of unemployment. Remember that the minimum wage law provides no jobs; it only outlaws them; and outlawed jobs ( unemployment ) are the inevitable result.

According to this

To save ourselves from impending financial and environmental catastrophe we need to build movements that have as their uncompromising goal the abolition of corporate power. Corporation after corporation, including banks, energy companies, the health care sector and defense contractors, must be broken up and nationalized. We must institute a nationwide public works program, especially for those under the age of 25, to create conditions for full employment. We must mandate a $15-an-hour minimum wage.

Mr. Hedges, who I assume this is the guy you are talking about disagrees with you on this. Rather a lot of stuff as well. He wants the $15 minimum wage. He wants the public works infrastructure work.

6 Pay should be determined by merit not by gender

Agreed

7 This is a government-created problems since you cannot have trade agreements without protecting special interests .... The easiest thing to do is revoke all trade treaties and let businesses trade with whom they want without any government interference

I'm sorry but you are a nation. And this is an impossible request.

8 Until you remove the money the government is pumping into the education industry ( like it did in the housing industry until the government-created bubble popped) you will never get prices to lower for education. That means revoking Title IV, Pell Grants and other loans, entitlements, and subsidies

What do you mean the government money? You mean public education? K to grade 12? That is essential! The education level of a population needs to increase as a nation develops. And if education is limited by the amount of money you have, I believe that is a travesty.

9 Won't happen until you break up the Federal Reserve, it is the biggest bank there is and it supports all the other banks under it.

I don't know enough, so I won't touch this. But you keep advocating the dissolving of the nation. Definitely not what I consider to be a good idea.

10 So we can go the way of France and have death panels .. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/13/terminally-ill-allowed-to-be-put-into-deep-sleep-u/ .... Pass on that bullshit

Your link doesn't provide enough information about the law. And there are no mentions of death panels. This and this states that the patients decide whether they wish for it. It is a form of passive euthanasia. And if a person wishes to die, have terminal illness and in constant pain, why shouldn't they have the right to do so? This is already legal in a lot of countries.

Also where does death panels come in? Sanders' 10th point is on universal healthcare. This is a staple in first world economies.

11 These programs already consume nearly 2/3rd of the budget and are bankrupting the nation and show no signs of success.

source? And what is success in your terms about protecting the seniors, poor and children?

Adding more debt to the $18 trillion dollar debt we currently have is only going to get the US downgraded and making the interest on the debt be the biggest expense in the budget

Again, I don't know enough

12 I can support this if it is simplified and taxes lowered so people can keep more of their own money and then grow the economy instead of allowing government to steal it and flush it down an incinerator of deficit spending

Sure

I'd love to chat more. I still do not understand your appeal for the privatization of public works and the dissolvement of the national government. And I would love to learn more about that.

In addition, if you don't mind me asking, who is the candidate you support? And why do you do so?

EDIT: sorry about the quadruple post. It said it couldn't post and I didn't realize it went through that many times until I refreshed the page.