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I think I can see the point you're trying to make. You're trying to say people are hypocritical and only partake in religion to virtue signal?
Nope. What I am saying is the current discussion is about identity politics, right? It just depends which identity and on what scale. Let's consider personal identity, strictly based on your own experience. This is what is called individualism. This does not bode well for a homogeneity and a strong social cohesion. It opens up the view of cosmopolitanism, moral equivalence, globalism, etc.
Identity based on religion, like in Islam, forces people together. They adhere to the same rituals, professed every friday. People meet each other before and after these rituals. Couple that with rigid moral views, based on a system of thought that is immutable, an identity is provided. placed in a society that is incompatible with these views, a sense of belonging, adversity and gain appears. There is heroism to be achieved, or notoriety, depending on which side of the debate you are.
Looking closely at the Dar-al-islam, house of Islam, you see differences. Just some broad strokes: Pakistani's have a different view of Islam then Iranians. Syrians view it differently then AK party Turks, and Saudi's or UAE's. This is expressed in small gestures. In the UAE, you, as a non muslim will receive your coffee last, despite enjoying their hospitality. In other places you may receive your coffee first, because, even as a non muslim, you are a guest.
With these outlines, let's look at "Christian" identity. Throughout history, religion has played a major role in defining identity. To expound on the example given (Franc vs Frysian/ Saxon) In 900 when the Francs were finally able to overcome by brute force of numbers, after decades of fierce war, the pagan Odin believers. Reading through Frysian law, it becomes apparent that conversion was not mandatory. Pagans and convert Christians cohabited peacefully. To not face a rebellion the next day, old customs were codified and kept in place. The only difference was to whom money for offenses was paid. The reason for conversion was simply that the Christian God proved to be stronger than the Pagan Odin. That did not negate the fact the the customs underlying the peoples behavior remained the same. So, the Church incorporated certain festivities and traditions based on the nations identity, e.g. Sinterklaas. This is not Santa Claus. It is a festivity on the eve of 4th december. It's roots are traced back to Odin, but it's imagery transposed to a Catholic Bishop. (Horse = white = Sleipnir; Black Pete takes misbehaving kids to Spain, Valkyrie takes warriors to Valhalla; Black Petes are plural; they tell Sinterklaas everything = black Raven) The Holy Oak is replaced by the evergreen Needle tree, adorned with angel hair. The celebration of Easter, mixed with bunnies and eggs. We could go on.
When this identity was under Siege, by the Catholic inquisition and the neglect shown by the Prince ( King of Spain) The Dutch declared by means of the Act of Abjuration, their independence. The Crown was offered to several Nobles within the Holy Roman Empire first. No one took the offer, so they instituted their own republican form of government. Dutch were protestant due to the fact that most schooled people were schooled classically and humanistic. And because of the geographical challenges (water) the Low Lands naturally moved to a consensus political approach rather than ideological revolution. Back then, the country had the fortitude and will to keep fighting for 80 years culminating in the peace of Westphalia. This caused an expansion on a world scale that still amazes me. Dutch settlements were all over the place, in America (Manhattan) Brasil (Recife), South Africa (Cape of Good Hope), Dutch indies, India, Japan. The Dutch controlled the trade on the Baltics. The entrepreneurial, scientific and philosophical freedom, based on old tradition, ushered in a golden age.
The strength and daring during that time period is one of legends. Sailing into England and taking it over. Bombing the shit out of Algiers, circumnavigating the globe, discovering Australia, Tasmania, New Zealand (Zeeland was a State in the Dutch Republic of the 7 provinces), Barentz lend his name to the sea he sailed to find a route around the north and the discovery of Nova Zembla.
As said: the geographical situation, vulnerability to the sea and flooding, forced the Dutch to think about solutions. Trade revenue, lead to new engineering solutions, like wind mills, application of classical knowledge, like the Archimedes screw, new boat designs, participation in new financial instruments. Scientist took refuge here, like Descartes, Locke, Comenius, many published their books here, like Hobbes.
Development of international law and maritime law was another consequence. Hugo Grotius was a main driver, Mare Librum, freedom of navigation/ the sea. In microbiology, Anthony van Leeuwenhoek still is heralded as a founding father.
Due to the low hierarchical nature of the Dutch, and the religious needs to be able to read the bible, literacy was high. Which caused and supported the need for free thought.
As you can see, identity plays a role in what a nation can absorb and accomplish.
This particular identity is again under siege, due to a stupid experiment. Mass immigration from countries with nothing to offer except bodies and a rigid unenlightened world view, does not jive with Dutch identity. Newcomers, forced to integration, fail at this for several reasons. They are usually illiterate and low skilled. But required of them is to learn the Dutch language (good luck with that), elevate themselves on a higher literacy level. At the same time, the old traditions are challenged by these newcomers under the guise of political correctness.
Worse even, when another newcomer from Argentina became engaged to the future King of The Netherlands, she proudly proclaimed, the REAL DUTCH do not exist. And yet, we see a growing number of people rebasing and propagating the traditions of old. We even have a name for it: oikophobia versus oikophilia. Just peruse the videos pushed out by the department of waterways here. There is much to take pride in, especially given the fact the Dutch built The Netherlands. Not slaves, not indentures. And the technological challenges are met awesomely. This ties in with infusing academia and schools with new blood, new narratives. It is out there. Newcomers need to be made aware in what an awesome country they are welcomed.
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[–] redtoe_skipper ago
Thank you for your elaborate response.
Nope. What I am saying is the current discussion is about identity politics, right? It just depends which identity and on what scale. Let's consider personal identity, strictly based on your own experience. This is what is called individualism. This does not bode well for a homogeneity and a strong social cohesion. It opens up the view of cosmopolitanism, moral equivalence, globalism, etc.
Identity based on religion, like in Islam, forces people together. They adhere to the same rituals, professed every friday. People meet each other before and after these rituals. Couple that with rigid moral views, based on a system of thought that is immutable, an identity is provided. placed in a society that is incompatible with these views, a sense of belonging, adversity and gain appears. There is heroism to be achieved, or notoriety, depending on which side of the debate you are.
Looking closely at the Dar-al-islam, house of Islam, you see differences. Just some broad strokes: Pakistani's have a different view of Islam then Iranians. Syrians view it differently then AK party Turks, and Saudi's or UAE's. This is expressed in small gestures. In the UAE, you, as a non muslim will receive your coffee last, despite enjoying their hospitality. In other places you may receive your coffee first, because, even as a non muslim, you are a guest.
With these outlines, let's look at "Christian" identity. Throughout history, religion has played a major role in defining identity. To expound on the example given (Franc vs Frysian/ Saxon) In 900 when the Francs were finally able to overcome by brute force of numbers, after decades of fierce war, the pagan Odin believers. Reading through Frysian law, it becomes apparent that conversion was not mandatory. Pagans and convert Christians cohabited peacefully. To not face a rebellion the next day, old customs were codified and kept in place. The only difference was to whom money for offenses was paid. The reason for conversion was simply that the Christian God proved to be stronger than the Pagan Odin. That did not negate the fact the the customs underlying the peoples behavior remained the same. So, the Church incorporated certain festivities and traditions based on the nations identity, e.g. Sinterklaas. This is not Santa Claus. It is a festivity on the eve of 4th december. It's roots are traced back to Odin, but it's imagery transposed to a Catholic Bishop. (Horse = white = Sleipnir; Black Pete takes misbehaving kids to Spain, Valkyrie takes warriors to Valhalla; Black Petes are plural; they tell Sinterklaas everything = black Raven) The Holy Oak is replaced by the evergreen Needle tree, adorned with angel hair. The celebration of Easter, mixed with bunnies and eggs. We could go on.
When this identity was under Siege, by the Catholic inquisition and the neglect shown by the Prince ( King of Spain) The Dutch declared by means of the Act of Abjuration, their independence. The Crown was offered to several Nobles within the Holy Roman Empire first. No one took the offer, so they instituted their own republican form of government. Dutch were protestant due to the fact that most schooled people were schooled classically and humanistic. And because of the geographical challenges (water) the Low Lands naturally moved to a consensus political approach rather than ideological revolution. Back then, the country had the fortitude and will to keep fighting for 80 years culminating in the peace of Westphalia. This caused an expansion on a world scale that still amazes me. Dutch settlements were all over the place, in America (Manhattan) Brasil (Recife), South Africa (Cape of Good Hope), Dutch indies, India, Japan. The Dutch controlled the trade on the Baltics. The entrepreneurial, scientific and philosophical freedom, based on old tradition, ushered in a golden age.
The strength and daring during that time period is one of legends. Sailing into England and taking it over. Bombing the shit out of Algiers, circumnavigating the globe, discovering Australia, Tasmania, New Zealand (Zeeland was a State in the Dutch Republic of the 7 provinces), Barentz lend his name to the sea he sailed to find a route around the north and the discovery of Nova Zembla.
As said: the geographical situation, vulnerability to the sea and flooding, forced the Dutch to think about solutions. Trade revenue, lead to new engineering solutions, like wind mills, application of classical knowledge, like the Archimedes screw, new boat designs, participation in new financial instruments. Scientist took refuge here, like Descartes, Locke, Comenius, many published their books here, like Hobbes.
Development of international law and maritime law was another consequence. Hugo Grotius was a main driver, Mare Librum, freedom of navigation/ the sea. In microbiology, Anthony van Leeuwenhoek still is heralded as a founding father.
Due to the low hierarchical nature of the Dutch, and the religious needs to be able to read the bible, literacy was high. Which caused and supported the need for free thought.
As you can see, identity plays a role in what a nation can absorb and accomplish.
This particular identity is again under siege, due to a stupid experiment. Mass immigration from countries with nothing to offer except bodies and a rigid unenlightened world view, does not jive with Dutch identity. Newcomers, forced to integration, fail at this for several reasons. They are usually illiterate and low skilled. But required of them is to learn the Dutch language (good luck with that), elevate themselves on a higher literacy level. At the same time, the old traditions are challenged by these newcomers under the guise of political correctness.
Worse even, when another newcomer from Argentina became engaged to the future King of The Netherlands, she proudly proclaimed, the REAL DUTCH do not exist. And yet, we see a growing number of people rebasing and propagating the traditions of old. We even have a name for it: oikophobia versus oikophilia. Just peruse the videos pushed out by the department of waterways here. There is much to take pride in, especially given the fact the Dutch built The Netherlands. Not slaves, not indentures. And the technological challenges are met awesomely. This ties in with infusing academia and schools with new blood, new narratives. It is out there. Newcomers need to be made aware in what an awesome country they are welcomed.