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[–] HappyExile 8 points 626 points (+634|-8) ago 

Yeah, I don't care what your stance on trans-genderism is, if you were born with a Y chromosome you have no fucking business competing against double XX's in sports, especially combat sports.

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[–] InsaneMonkey 9 points 238 points (+247|-9) ago  (edited ago)

I agree. Problem is we will be now labelled as bigots for having this opinion. Transgended people get really defensive when you insist that they are really the sex they were born as opposed to the sex they identify with. To me, this just goes to prove that she is still physically a man.

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[–] HappyExile 1 points 269 points (+270|-1) ago 

I'm not even saying that a transgender woman is really a man. I don't care, I'll call Chelsea Manning, Chelsea, and refer to her as "she." All I am saying is that she has a Y chromosome, which gives her the bone-structure of her birthgender, and we separate atheletes not because of their gender in the abstract, but because having a Y chromosome gives you a different bone structure and more physical strength than those who don't.

Fuck it.

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[–] Spooky_Wizard 1 points 84 points (+85|-1) ago 

In this instance, if pragmatism is taken for bigotry, then go ahead and label me a bigot.

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[–] starharvest 1 points 13 points (+14|-1) ago 

Exactly, men are only allowed to lay a hand on a woman if they identify as a woman apparently.

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[–] Ellen_Kung_Pao 0 points 7 points (+7|-0) ago 

I mean, are they the same sex? Really depends on the definition right? Do they still have the same skeletal and muscular structure (unless somehow? altered by surgery)? Yep. And that's what matters here.

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[–] czakalwe 2 points 139 points (+141|-2) ago  (edited ago)

Joe Rogan called this a while ago. Fallon Fox has the physiological advantages of living three decades as a male.

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[–] HappyExile 0 points 65 points (+65|-0) ago 

Joe Rogan keeps shit real.

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[–] ThisIsCathartic 0 points 45 points (+45|-0) ago 

That's the first thing I thought of when I read the title. Rogan made the case perfectly, as thought it really needed to be made.

Stupid people are a part of our culture and, unfortunately, influence what happens. Stupid people are what allowed this to happen, which isn't the end of the world but certainly made worse because it was so plainly, obviously avoidable.

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[–] insert_name 0 points 7 points (+7|-0) ago 

Aww I love this guy. He's linked-to on Voat like dozens of times every day because he says just 100% certified, bonafide, pragmatic, sense.

Love the guy.

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[–] somethingsomethingBS 0 points 6 points (+6|-0) ago  (edited ago)

Ashlee Evans-Smith beat Fallon Fox, but Ashlee also used to wrestle on the boys team at her high school. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU7FMgQjCNw

Ashlee's thoughts: https://youtu.be/TRBGnjoWdo8?t=2m28s

edit: another fallon fox fight with Allanna Jones https://youtu.be/FUgey_bQ_i8. hard to watch...

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[–] anonlymouse 1 points 5 points (+6|-1) ago 

It's not that simple, Fox got ragdolled by Evans-Smith, who herself didn't have much experience. There aren't many women in MMA, so you'll see massive differences in ability anyway, and the serious injuries that go with it.

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[–] gelidfelid 0 points 3 points (+3|-0) ago  (edited ago)

I'm not so sure that a Y chromosome always gives you an advantage against other females. Some people are born XY and have androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS)...also called the supermodel disorder. They are usually tall and lean but somewhat curvy, and cannot process testosterone efficiently and so cannot benefit from having XY in an athletic sense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome

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[–] BloodPool [S] 1 points 153 points (+154|-1) ago 

“I’ve fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can’t answer whether it’s because she was born a man or not, because I’m not a doctor,” she stated. “I can only say, I’ve never felt so overpowered ever in my life, and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right. ”

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[–] CaptDumb 0 points 177 points (+177|-0) ago 

In 2013, after a 39-second knockout victory, Fox’s fifth straight first-round victory, it was revealed that Fox had not told the MMA community about her sex-change operation, which took place in 2006.

There should have been some red flags here when this happened.

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[–] KarmaComber 2 points 141 points (+143|-2) ago 

Red flags, sirens and alarm bells. Fallon Fox should not be fighting against anyone EXCEPT other transgender women. THAT would be a fair fight. This was an all out fucking beating. I hope the victim sues the shit out of the MMA organiser and Fox for the damage.

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[–] SweetEasy 7 points 15 points (+22|-7) ago 

Ronda rousey will put him in his place.

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[–] 1smartass 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

She doesn't have the biology to stain flags red.

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[–] achuie 0 points 10 points (+10|-0) ago 

I feel obligated to point out that Maddox riffed on this issue months ago on his podcast. Good episode!

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[–] Nationalist 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago 

Got a link to it?

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[–] RevRound 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago  (edited ago)

Cant say whether it was because she was a man or not? Well biology can say objectively that men have more physical strength on average than the build of a woman.

Identity politics activist and those who are scared may actively try to ignore the facts, but science is science and reality doesnt care. This should never be allowed

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[–] KarmaComber 1 points 114 points (+115|-1) ago 

Sorry, this is not right. Not in a contact sport. Nope. Not at all.

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[–] SrBearLordofOldCastl 1 points 104 points (+105|-1) ago 

actually not in any sport, men are physically superior to women. (Im not being misogynist or anything its simply a fact.)

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[–] tchouk 0 points 69 points (+69|-0) ago 

I've had Internet arguments with people who seriously claimed that physical strength is also a social construct: we expect boys to do the heavy lifting, so they practice their muscles a lot more.

No biological differences except genitalia are accepted because otherwise you can't have perfect androgenous equality.

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[–] PM-ME-THOSE-TITS 0 points 37 points (+37|-0) ago 

It's unfortunate you have to say you're not misogynistic for stating a fact. That's what kind of a society we live in.

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[–] EpicMachine 0 points 3 points (+3|-0) ago 

FACTS ARE MISOGYNIST. lol...

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[–] Lilgreen13 0 points 3 points (+3|-0) ago 

It's sad that in this day and age it can be considered misogynistic to simply state a scientific fact.

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[–] FuckedUpLuck 0 points 4 points (+4|-0) ago  (edited ago)

Not in any sport. It's really fucking terrible that the thing that will finally get women's professional athletics the attention they deserve is for men to start competing in them.

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[–] mycokerewardsdotcom 1 points 90 points (+91|-1) ago 

All due respect transgendered community... but they definitely should not have been in the ring together.

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[–] Cassiekin 1 points 15 points (+16|-1) ago 

She seems to be freakishly strong. I am going through the hormone replacement therapy and it's nearly fucking impossible to put on muscle now. Background, I used to have six pack abs.

Regardless of what shouldbe the case. This Trans MMA fighter shouldn't have been in that ring. That isn't a fair fight.

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[–] Terkala 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

This MMA fighter got the surgery, without the hormone replacement. According to her wiki article. That's how she put on the muscle.

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[–] AberdolfLincler 1 points 64 points (+65|-1) ago 

I've always said I have no problems with transgender people, I'll happily call them the gender they prefer, but I drew the symbolic line with the Olympics. I stand by that, but more importantly, I think it's especially important to not have someone who was born a man in a contact sport with someone who was born a woman. That's not right, there's enough permanent injury in those sports as is, without doing that. It's just reckless, dangerous, and honestly, unfair.

[–] [deleted] 11 points 57 points (+68|-11) ago 

[Deleted]

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[–] SpaceRosa 28 points 24 points (+52|-28) ago  (edited ago)

Don't whitewash it. It's not all the same.

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to be transgender, socially? Let's ignore all the other problems for a moment and focus on that. You get ostracized. That's what happens. You're a freak. You look like something you're not, so if you want to go into the bathroom of the gender you identify with, people like you are going to assume you're a pervert, or up to no good. You get weird looks for buying clothes that don't match your sex. Funny looks everywhere, and that's if you're lucky and everyone politely keeps their mouths shut until you're out of range. Sometimes you'll be denied service. You can expect threats, possibly violence.

Bearing that in mind, who the bloody hell do you think is going to claim to identify as a girl just so they can go into the bathroom? This stupid response comes up all the time, and it's completely moronic, every time. The only person stupid enough to try and pull that is someone who would want to do it anyway.

And of course, you're also pulling on the poor women string, because naturally it would be a guy who's using it go after the pure maidens. It's always that argument. Do you have any idea how stupid it is?

Why deny rights to the real transgender people? Because you think that someone might abuse it? Well, obviously we shouldn't let gay people use the changing rooms with people of their sex, because they might get turned on and try something funny. While we're at it, we should avoid racism by separating black people and white people. Nobody can get hurt if you completely avoid the chance, right?

You know, I really could've composed this better, so let me try and sum it up coherently.

Yes, there is a treatment for GID. It's Hormone replacement therapy and (not necessarily) sex reassignment surgery. It treats the gender dysphoria. That's why people do it. No, it's not ideal. But transgender people's brains are different to the norms of their sex. They're like the gender they identify as. We can't change the structure of an established brain. Changing the body is all we can do. No amount of therapy can change that. No, transgender people are not trying to get into women's changing rooms for perverted reasons. This is a classic assume the worst. This is denying transgender people rights based on a hypothetical scenario. That's not a good reason. By that reasoning, you could deny anyone anything. Better not let Timmy play outside, he could get kidnapped. Being transgender isn't as simple as claiming it. You won't be allowed to use the bathroom of the gender you identify as without being proven by someone qualified to have GID. To be legitimate. Sometimes not even then. The social stigma is much too serious. Nobody in their right mind is going to use it as an excuse to go perv, and if they are then you're blaming the wrong people, because that type of person is going to do it anyway. They're just hijacking something else to make it easier.

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[–] zoetry 8 points 11 points (+19|-8) ago 

It is one that we don't know how to treat

Bulllshit. Do you know what, objectively, is the worst part of being trans? 41% of them attempt to kill themselves. That number, along all the other symptoms of gender dysphoria, go out the window with HRT/SRS.

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[–] Karnivor 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago 

What I find really interesting is that for other illness like whatever that illness is where you think your arm or whatever isn't YOUR arm... we don't just start lopping body parts off...

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[–] placoid 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

Gender dysphoric disorder means the individual is distressed by their desires, and if not they don't meet the criteria. Given the vastly diverse range of human preferences and dispositions, it's reasonable to accept some latitude in gender.

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[–] zoetry 1 points 3 points (+4|-1) ago 

I think it's especially important to not have someone who was born a man in a contact sport with someone who was born a woman. That's not right, there's enough permanent injury in those sports as is, without doing that. It's just reckless, dangerous, and honestly, unfair.

Manon Rhéaume would like to have a word with you.

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[–] TodayIsAGoodDay 0 points 8 points (+8|-0) ago 

Women should be able to compete in the men's leagues, if they so choose.

Michelle Wie made the cut in a PGA tour event once. That's awesome.

Here's the thing, Neither Manon nor Michele can have the success they'd like to have playing against men at the highest level in their respective sports. But they choose to try to complete at that level, against those players.

The issue in this case is that women competing against each other are being subjected to an opponent who was born, and went through puberty and physical maturation as a male.

If Manon had made it in the NHL, you can bet she'd be subjected to some significant injuries. But she would have been willingly choosing to compete against men, a very different scenario than being pitted against trans women who have the physical advantage of maturing as a male but are competing in a female league.

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[–] GastineauRadio 1 points 5 points (+6|-1) ago 

Manon Rhéaume is an excellent example of men and women competing together on an equal playing field. Fallon Fox knocked out five women without ever telling them she went through puberty with a Y chromosome.

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[–] Zednix 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

I would like to see women playing against men as skaters in hockey, not goalies. I am not sure that it could be safe for women in a contact sport.

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[–] Acerebral 1 points 57 points (+58|-1) ago 

One of the key arguments supporting sex change operations is that gender is a social construct, and thus an individual can CHOOSE his or her gender, even if it differs from their biological sex. It is vital to note that while Fallon Fox is a woman by gender, she is biologically male, and sports need to be divided by sex, not gender.

Having her compete in the men's league as a woman would not compromise her gender, but would account for the physical realities of her being genetically male. I hope this strikes a balance between acknowledging the validity of Foxe's gender and the functional reality of her sex in the context of competitive sports.

[–] [deleted] 1 points 14 points (+15|-1) ago 

[Deleted]

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[–] RogerByam 1 points 4 points (+5|-1) ago 

Yep.

Gender vs Sex.

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[–] tchouk 1 points 12 points (+13|-1) ago 

"Gender is a social construct" is a sort of a blanket argument that relies more on (re)defining the word gender than anything else.

I mean sure, we can say that gender is,by definition, the social differences between male and female. But this definition is actually completely useless because we don't really know which differences are biological and to what extent.

And the very people who should be studying this question are mired neck-deep in a preferred and very uncomplicated "everything is social" ideology and do absolutely nothing to question their faith and advance actual understanding of understanding ourselves. Worse then not doing anything, they actually impede the advancement of scientists in other fields by trying to make this a toxic subject to study.

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[–] BloodPool [S] 1 points 7 points (+8|-1) ago 

Well spoken.

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[–] SpaceRosa 11 points 3 points (+14|-11) ago 

That's not it.

Where the hell did you read that?

Obviously not. If a person could just choose their gender, why the bloody hell would anyone choose to go through all the pain and misery of transitioning from one gender to another?

You're literally saying gender identity is a choice. Might as well say people can choose to be gay, while you're at it.

I think what you're confusing is several terms.

You've got gender, your physical sex. Often used to mean identity.

Then there's gender identity, the sex you identify as inside your head.

Last you have gender roles, which is what you're actually talking about.

Gender roles are indeed the social construct. A person can choose whether or not to conform to this. They can bend it or break it if they like. This they can choose.

Gender Identity is immutable. It's just the way it is. That's why transgender people can't just turn cis. This is the justification for a sex change. You can't change the mind, but you can change the body to suit the mind and alleviate that problem.

Having her compete in the men's league as a woman would spit in the face of her gender identity. Additionally, it wouldn't be completely fair either, due to physical changes brought about by the hormone therapy, so maybe people can stop pretending like she's just a man with tits, because that's not all there is to it.

IN SHORT: No, people can't choose their gender. They have a fixed gender identity, the sex they think they are in their head. What the can choose is their gender role; whether or not to act by defined parameters of masculinity and femininity. This fighter should not complete as a woman in the male league because it would invalidate her gender identity, and more importantly physical differences from hormone replacement mean it couldn't be said to be completely fair either.

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[–] FFX01 0 points 18 points (+18|-0) ago 

You're sort of wrong about gender. From the dictionary:

Gender: the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones).

Sex: either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and many other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions.

Gender IS a social construct. Gender roles, and gender identities fall as sub categories of gender. You CAN choose your gender, you CANNOT choose your sex. Now, if you choose to undergo surgery, it may aid you in changing your gender, but it WILL NOT change your sex. This is because sexual reassignment surgery CANNOT change Whether you have XX chromosomes or XY chromosomes.

Back to the issue at hand: If you were born with XY chromosomes, you should be competing against others who were born with XY chromosomes. Biological males have a distinct physical advantage over biological females. This Fox person didn't make the transition until she was 30, well after full development as a male takes place. Putting her in the ring against females is unfair and dangerous.

You can argue about perceived discrimination all you want, but in this case it's necessary to keep someone who has an unfair biological advantage from beating the shit out of other women.

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[–] Acerebral 0 points 9 points (+9|-0) ago 

Your explanation of gender identity vs gender roles was very good. It is the idea I was going for, but didn't reach. Also, I didn't mean to imply that one's gender identity is a choice. I meant that wheras you were once locked into your gender based off your sex, a person may now choose to publicly say, "That is not who I am."

As for "spitting in her face" by having her compete in the men's league, that's better than having her literally break faces in the women's league. Because of her physical sex, she has an unfair advantage in the women's league, and one that puts her opponents at risk. If the hormone treatments put her at a disadvantage to men, that's simply the unfortunate side effect of a necessary surgery, no different than if she was weakened by an organ transplant.

She doesn't get to pick her league based off where she will do better. She gets assigned based on her physical traits, the same as everybody else. If she can't excel at MMA because she was born with gender disphoria, that is too bad. Many people are bad fighters for many reasons. I have a friend who was born with severe MS. Through no fault of his own, he cannot be an MMA fighter. It is very unfortunate.

So Fallon Fox was born with a body whose sex did not match her gender. She wants to compete in MMA, but a surgery is preventing her from reaching peak performance as an athlete. I feel sorry for anybody in this situation, but in sports, there are winners and losers. Nobody is under any obligation to help her win regardless of how good the reason. That is sports.

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[–] slfnflctd 0 points 3 points (+3|-0) ago 

It was not too long ago that I read for the first time about the debate between certain feminists and the trans community on this issue. Initially I had a bit of cognitive dissonance with the idea-- of course trans people must think gender is 'fluid', that's just obvious, right? I should have known better, having known several trans individuals, but I had to sit and think about it for a while. It's obvious now, but it wasn't at first.

So I appreciate what you're saying here and agree with most of it. However, I think the concern over having a trans woman compete physically with cis women is perfectly valid. Making them compete only with men might be perceived as a 'spit in the face', but sports rules are different from workplace rules for a lot of very good reasons, and one of those is that people born women have a consistently divergent physically competitive profile from people born men, even taking hormone therapy into account. Someone else in the thread mentioned having trans women only fight in these kinds of matches against other trans women, but that doesn't seem very practical. I don't know what the best solution is, but I can't agree that a trans woman should be considered the same as a cis woman in most sporting events-- the way the Olympics are divided is not some holdover from the dark ages, it's done for purely practical, physical reasons.

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[–] Marmot 3 points 0 points (+3|-3) ago 

I like how you've laid this out and broken this complicated concept down, as not many people understand the intricacies of Cis/trans gender concepts. I agree she should not be forced to fight in a men's tournament, that still leaves us with a gap with how we can accomodate trans atheletes. As you have said, the transition does make changes to the body, but the changes are not absolute, and there is no way to ensure a fair fight for any cis athletes who have the training but lack the inherit biological structure that comes with the natural Sexual dimorphism of the species. So where does that leave any trans fighters, both men and women? Is this a thing where we need an entirely separate trans only league? Or perhaps a non gendered tourney where fighters are sorted though physical capabilities are in order. I don't know the answer, and I don't know if there is a perfect answer. These are definitely the kinds of discussions Cis and trans people will need to have with each other in the coming decades if we ever want to be truly accepting.

[–] [deleted] 11 points 41 points (+52|-11) ago  (edited ago)

[Deleted]

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[–] Hereforthekeks 1 points 12 points (+13|-1) ago 

Shouldn't have*

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[–] mamwad 4 points -1 points (+3|-4) ago 

She's still biologically male. Gender is different than sex.

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[–] locke-ama-gi 1 points 4 points (+5|-1) ago 

She's still biologically male

Do you have any idea how that sounds?

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[–] AnTi90d 13 points 40 points (+53|-13) ago 

So, a man beat the shit out of a woman and.. instead of being arrested.. he got paid for it.

That's fucking disgusting.

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[–] Fooj 2 points 10 points (+12|-2) ago 

If they punch like a man they fight other men. This used to be a shower-thought a few years back, now if the can him they'll go broke because of "discrimination".

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[–] AnTi90d 0 points 5 points (+5|-0) ago 

Hah.. your statement reminded me of one of my great aunts.. She's almost six feet tall and looks like a lesbian version of the Incredible Hulk.. and, yes, she does hit like a man; she beat the shit out of her brothers and they beat the shit out of her.

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[–] Zkv 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

I mean... they can objectively measure her strength and see where it fits as compared to the standard for other fighters. If it's outside a certain deviation, I don't think she'd do all that well in court.

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