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[–] HAESisalie ago  (edited ago)

Can you show any data about any of this? Highest overall ability to move economic strata - really? Should be easy to show from data collected by IRS.

Didn't downvote you, and not saying your point is entirely wrong. There is some truth in the personal choices part, but some of that stuff you are citing is nothing but "hurr durr America is the best at everything, even though I have no idea what the data actually shows!"

I found something: https://www.epi.org/publication/usa-lags-peer-countries-mobility/

The notion that anyone in America who is willing and able to “pull themselves up by their bootstraps” can achieve significant upward mobility is deeply embedded in U.S. society. Conventional wisdom holds that class barriers in the United States are the lowest among the world’s advanced economies. Motivating this belief is the notion that there is a tradeoff between market regulation and mobility; advanced European economies are characterized by higher taxes, greater regulation, more union coverage, universal health care, a more comprehensive social contract, etc. Because some see these policies and institutions as impediments to mobility, mobility is believed to be greater in the United States.

While faith in the American Dream is deep, evidence suggests that the United States lacks policies to ensure the opportunities that the dream envisions. According to the data, there is considerably more mobility in most other developed economies.

… snip for brevity...

The relationship between father-son earnings is tighter in the United States than in most peer OECD countries, meaning U.S. mobility is among the lowest of major industrialized economies. The relatively low correlations between father-son earnings in Scandinavian countries provide a stark contradiction to the conventional wisdom. An elasticity of 0.47 found in the United States offers much less likelihood of moving up than an elasticity of 0.18 or less, as characterizes Finland, Norway, and Denmark.

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[–] sonuvspam 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago 

Mechanisms exist, but people don't avail of them because it requires actually deferring gratification and working towards a goal. Example...Honorable retirement from ANY branch of the US Military, Coast Guard included. Any able bodied citizen, no matter how poor, can workhard enough in free public school to pass the ASVAB and join, at which time...instant paid job, full healthcare for self, spouse and offspring (including birthing said offspring) $200k+ for college, VA mortgage/small business loan access, pension at 50 regardless of employment and veterans preference for govt jobs...making possible actual retirement with TWO govt pensions. But, ohh..it takes work, sacrifice and a plan. How unjust...

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[–] HAESisalie ago  (edited ago)

I was looking more for data than feels, but thanks anyway. The data I am finding does not support your notions of boundless opportunity to rise up the caste system in the US.

As far as feels, mine are: I myself made huge sacrifices to make the best of my VERY limited opportunities. Despite my humble beginnings and some actual impediments to success that were no fault of my own, I rose up to make a 6 figure salary, but even with that and a superior work ethic and competence, I never came close to matching peers who were insta granted access to upper class from birth and access to social circles, elite private schooling that they only got because of $$$ and not merit, and universities, all where they gained important social connections to give them huge advantages, and the ability to maintain upper status no matter what through those familial and social connections.

I had to pound the pavement and prove myself to get any opportunity, while other simply called a fraternity buddy, or old family connection, after completely fucking up in their previous positions and would get a job immediately.

One arrest, serious medical connection etc and it would have been game over for me, while those things meant little to their careers. I also wasn't born with fetal alcohol syndrome, or abused emotionally and physically throughout my childhood, or forced to attend some shitty public school full of blacks where learning is impossible, simply because I was born to shitbird parents.

I think things are much more complicated in life than you think.

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[–] Aranarth 0 points 1 point (+1|-0) ago  (edited ago)

Please see the article below, for a clearer look at the same type of data collected by PEW. It reviews how comparatively the mobility hasn't been fantastic compared to other countries, but as an absolute comparative America has increased mobility due to to overall increase of wealth and prosperity. This increase in economic success gives more mobility overall, though it does call out there has been no comparable studies done for other countries to give a definitive metric. Basically, the rising tide and everyone's boats, except for those actively sabotaging themselves through poor choices.

So no, I am not saying "hurr durr America is the best at everything, even though I have no idea what the data actually shows!"

I am saying the US has a whole host of issues, and one of them is a culture of instant gratification that robs the population of real opportunities if they were not raised fiscally responsible, which most weren't.

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/economic-mobility-united-states-compared-europe-scandinavia/

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[–] HAESisalie ago 

Well, I totally agree with instant gratification, lack of work ethic, entitlement attitude "Give me!" etc. and POOR choices being factor in why SOME people fail to rise up the economic strata, but in many cases those are not the reason, and many people who fall into the upper strata make even worse personal choices, but succeed despite of that simply because of how the system is rigged. And it is rigged. Surely you understand that the rich are not immune from poor personal choices, they just have built in protection against suffering the same repercussions as the rest of us.