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[–] Aranarth 1 point 1 point (+2|-1) ago  (edited ago)

You are spot on here.

Poor choices were made, sacrifice deffered for the short term gain, and inability to not spend what's in the pocket.

America is the most mobile civilization in history, with the highest overall ability to move economic strata, and actively (is supposed to) ensure equality of rights.

If they can't make it here, 9/10, they can't make.

Edit: My first downvoat, and for stating a reality no less, I really am home!

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[–] Goathole 0 points 1 point (+1|-0) ago 

We get a lot of losers here too. They stray in from other parts of the internet where responsibility and hard work is for suckers.

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[–] HAESisalie ago  (edited ago)

Can you show any data about any of this? Highest overall ability to move economic strata - really? Should be easy to show from data collected by IRS.

Didn't downvote you, and not saying your point is entirely wrong. There is some truth in the personal choices part, but some of that stuff you are citing is nothing but "hurr durr America is the best at everything, even though I have no idea what the data actually shows!"

I found something: https://www.epi.org/publication/usa-lags-peer-countries-mobility/

The notion that anyone in America who is willing and able to “pull themselves up by their bootstraps” can achieve significant upward mobility is deeply embedded in U.S. society. Conventional wisdom holds that class barriers in the United States are the lowest among the world’s advanced economies. Motivating this belief is the notion that there is a tradeoff between market regulation and mobility; advanced European economies are characterized by higher taxes, greater regulation, more union coverage, universal health care, a more comprehensive social contract, etc. Because some see these policies and institutions as impediments to mobility, mobility is believed to be greater in the United States.

While faith in the American Dream is deep, evidence suggests that the United States lacks policies to ensure the opportunities that the dream envisions. According to the data, there is considerably more mobility in most other developed economies.

… snip for brevity...

The relationship between father-son earnings is tighter in the United States than in most peer OECD countries, meaning U.S. mobility is among the lowest of major industrialized economies. The relatively low correlations between father-son earnings in Scandinavian countries provide a stark contradiction to the conventional wisdom. An elasticity of 0.47 found in the United States offers much less likelihood of moving up than an elasticity of 0.18 or less, as characterizes Finland, Norway, and Denmark.

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[–] sonuvspam 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago 

Mechanisms exist, but people don't avail of them because it requires actually deferring gratification and working towards a goal. Example...Honorable retirement from ANY branch of the US Military, Coast Guard included. Any able bodied citizen, no matter how poor, can workhard enough in free public school to pass the ASVAB and join, at which time...instant paid job, full healthcare for self, spouse and offspring (including birthing said offspring) $200k+ for college, VA mortgage/small business loan access, pension at 50 regardless of employment and veterans preference for govt jobs...making possible actual retirement with TWO govt pensions. But, ohh..it takes work, sacrifice and a plan. How unjust...

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[–] Aranarth 0 points 1 point (+1|-0) ago  (edited ago)

Please see the article below, for a clearer look at the same type of data collected by PEW. It reviews how comparatively the mobility hasn't been fantastic compared to other countries, but as an absolute comparative America has increased mobility due to to overall increase of wealth and prosperity. This increase in economic success gives more mobility overall, though it does call out there has been no comparable studies done for other countries to give a definitive metric. Basically, the rising tide and everyone's boats, except for those actively sabotaging themselves through poor choices.

So no, I am not saying "hurr durr America is the best at everything, even though I have no idea what the data actually shows!"

I am saying the US has a whole host of issues, and one of them is a culture of instant gratification that robs the population of real opportunities if they were not raised fiscally responsible, which most weren't.

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/economic-mobility-united-states-compared-europe-scandinavia/