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[–] soap 0 points 86 points (+86|-0) ago 

Now that there are subvoat moderation logs, maybe an sitewide administration log could be useful too, where we could see any admin level moderating.

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[–] ChillyHellion 0 points 27 points (+27|-0) ago 

That's a great idea. Transparency all the way up.

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[–] Tiredofyourshit 0 points 16 points (+16|-0) ago 

100% transparency would go a long way to show users that this website really stands for transparency. Not only would it greatly help fight corruption but also possible censorship in the future, almost all actions by admins is hidden on reddit with subreddits and shadowbans being dealt out with no evidence to who enacted them.

I think we also need a cap of how many subvoats a user can moderator. We need to prevent those power hungry moderators that have influence over hundreds of subreddits from doing the same here.

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[–] cybers 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

This would be an amazing idea. Most controversy and hate comes from conspiracy theories and people thinking stuff about the administrators and staff of a website - if they were extremely transparent, there would be no room for things like that. Everything would be out in the open and fair.

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[–] 332 0 points 9 points (+9|-0) ago 

Great idea. It would really underline that the site actually strives for real transparency, as opposed to reddits "newspeak transparency".

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[–] indelible-sarcasm 1 points 7 points (+8|-1) ago  (edited ago)

As I understand things, shadow bans were originally used to combat automated processes. There is, unfortunately, probably still some merit in that.

It was such a confounding situation that it became irresistible for use against "the wrong sort of user". As time went by, the wrong user filter got wider and wider.

So the question is, how do you limit bots without giving a spiked club to the admins?

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[–] acratus 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago 

Your participation, your donations, your votes. Ultimately, like StumbleUpon, Digg, and Reddit before it, if Voat goes to shit, it's up to the users to vote with their feet.

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[–] MJStone 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

Can you explain the difference between a regular ban and shadow ban. And why a shadow ban is needed to deal with bots, why can a normal ban not be used against bots?

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[–] geekygirl23 1 points -1 points (+0|-1) ago 

Why would you think that? Reddit lets you use their API to automate all sorts of shit and tell you exactly how to do it.

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[–] aakaakaak 0 points 4 points (+4|-0) ago 

Do you happen to know the syntax to access the moderator logs?

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[–] derram 0 points 11 points (+11|-0) ago  (edited ago)

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[–] NotSurvivingLife 0 points 52 points (+52|-0) ago 

Shadowbans were the single biggest transparent redflag about Reddit.

I mean: they didn't work for their intended purpose, and trivially so. And they seemed to be used for censorship and pushing people they didn't want away, as opposed to for spam. (And again, for spam accounts they are trivial to detect anyways.)

As such, I fully agree with you.

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[–] Dortex 1 points 12 points (+13|-1) ago 

I remember my last shadowban on that site. I talked to some random guy twice over the course of four days, and apparently I was breaking rules somehow.

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[–] TheRedditExodus 0 points 8 points (+8|-0) ago 

My first account there was shadow banned and I never made a single comment or post on it.

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[–] Madbrad200 2 points -2 points (+0|-2) ago 

You can protest a shadowban, and possibly get a reason, here .

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[–] Teh_Sauce_Guy 2 points 1 points (+3|-2) ago 

According to the actual admin of this site, shadowbans actually do work quite effectively against bots -- they are trivial to detect. For humans. It requires more effort for a bot.

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[–] Hewitt 0 points 13 points (+13|-0) ago  (edited ago)

Bullshit. A bot would just run a check once an hour on its profile (using http://nullprogram.com/am-i-shadowbanned/), and see if it gets a page full of comments, or the giant picture. Code makes shadowbans not work. It's annoying for humans because, who the hell checks their profile? And that's the only way you can tell for sure.

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[–] NotSurvivingLife 0 points 5 points (+5|-0) ago 

Then spammers are even stupider than I thought.

You have a secondary IP (trivial) and just view the userpage of the user in question. Or visit the new queue of a sub that just got posted to by the user you wish to check. Or the comments of something that just had a comment posted to by the user. Done. (There is a minor wrinkle of things being caught in the spam filter. But that is also doable.)

I fail to see how that's difficult for a bot, or any more difficult for a bot than a human.

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[–] Madbrad200 1 points 0 points (+1|-1) ago 

I mean: they didn't work for their intended purpose, and trivially so.

Completely false. Shadowbans are very effective in killing spammers.

And they seemed to be used for censorship and pushing people they didn't want away

Since when? Never. They were used to conbat spam, effectively, combat ban evaders, more or less effectively, harassment, spam reporters among other things.

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[–] NotSurvivingLife 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

[Citation Needed]

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[–] johnlocke90 1 points 0 points (+1|-1) ago 

I mean: they didn't work for their intended purpose, and trivially so.

They worked very well against dumb bots.

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[–] NotSurvivingLife 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

So do captchas. Or, for that matter, standard bans.

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[–] wickedwilson 0 points 26 points (+26|-0) ago  (edited ago)

My single biggest Reddit complaint, by far, was shadowbanning. Passive aggressive BS. At the very least, a mod should reply to the offending post informing the poster they are banned.

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[–] MCVoat 0 points 3 points (+3|-0) ago 

Not just passive-aggressive but plain cowardly.

Hell, even 4chan mods have the decency to tell you why you were banned.

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[–] Madbrad200 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

Mods can't shadowban anyway. Informing a spammer they are shadowbanned is counter-productive.

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[–] codyave 1 points 1 points (+2|-1) ago 

Not to be pedantic, but only admins can shadowban.

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[–] zoechan 0 points 4 points (+4|-0) ago 

Not who you replied to, but I heard mods can shadowban in their own subs but I'm not sure if that's true.

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[–] Madbrad200 1 points -1 points (+0|-1) ago 

Whilst this is true, users can report others to /r/spam. Which if caught as a spammer, would result in a shadowban.

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[–] dijitao 0 points 14 points (+14|-0) ago 

I don't think we need Shadow bans at all. The CCP thresholds put a major road block in the way of a spambot, and a spambot could always check to see if it was shadow banned and create a new bot. The shadow ban doesn't offer anything.

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[–] Madbrad200 2 points -1 points (+1|-2) ago 

The shadow ban doesn't offer anything.

It effectively bans spammers on reddit, so it would no doubt do the same here.

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[–] dijitao 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago 

I disagree. The spammer can check if they're shadow banned and just create another account to circumvent the ban.

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[–] BigSwami 0 points 12 points (+12|-0) ago 

I actually love the shadowban as an option to derail spambots. However, we absolutely need sitewide admin logs for its use so that we can guarantee that it is transparent, and an appeals process for its use.

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[–] NotSurvivingLife 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

Except that shadowbans don't even do that much.

It's trivial to detect if one is shadowbanned.

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[–] immibis 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago  (edited ago)

So fix the common detection methods. Make user profiles of shadowbanned users still visible, for example. Make it so any IP address used by a user in the last day can always see that user's posts, shadowbanned or not.

You can't make it absolutely impossible, but you can still fight.

Of course, that's entirely separate from the transparency problem....

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[–] CarnageSymbiote 0 points 9 points (+9|-0) ago 

I fully support this.

There should be no middle ground when banning someone. Either you ban them or you don't. Communication should also be key. I never understood shadow bans. You are now trolling the person commenting. They are wasting their time posting replies and commenting as their comments will never be seen.

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[–] KashEsq 0 points 13 points (+13|-0) ago 

It started off as a means to stop spammers, but ended up getting abused to quietly get rid of people by spineless admins/mods.

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[–] Madbrad200 1 points -1 points (+0|-1) ago 

but ended up getting abused to quietly get rid of people by spineless admins/mods.

Mods can't shadowban and admins don't rid themselves of people because they don't like them.

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[–] wigawam 0 points 6 points (+6|-0) ago 

I thought that Shadowbans were useful for combating spam. If so, that seems like a legit use.

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[–] ChillyHellion 0 points 6 points (+6|-0) ago 

The problem is that it's not very good at stopping spam (since spam account will be expecting the shadowban and can keep an ear to the ground) and it's very good at censoring users who won't realize they're banned for at least a little while.

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[–] Krutonium 0 points 3 points (+3|-0) ago 

There was a person a couple months back, he had been shadow banned for 8 years and never knew it.

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[–] Madbrad200 1 points 1 points (+2|-1) ago 

(since spam account will be expecting the shadowban and can keep an ear to the ground)

Understandable assumption, but false. Spammers in my experience don't really understand how reddit works at all, and so won't be expecting a shadowban. I remember watching one video where a spammer explained his shadowban was because of massive traffic on his website. It is this sort of ignorance of how reddit works that makes shadowbans effective against spammers.

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[–] Dralger 0 points 5 points (+5|-0) ago  (edited ago)

Totally agree. The lack of transparency and total abuse of discretion is what made me jump ship.

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