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[–] Asrien 6 points 197 points (+203|-6) ago  (edited ago)

Ugh, freakin' posers. If you make games but don't play them what fucking credibility do you have? How can you have a decently thought out idea? It's a pretentious load of shit, and it's all sorts of wrong.

Ammendment: Having discussed stuff with people in the copious number of posts here I feel like I need to ammend/edit this post, because contextually a straight cut n' switch on the initial statement would crap all over context I'll just say here: it is possible for a developer to create a playable game without being a gamer, but obviously a gamer will have the passion and interest to enrich their games possibly to a greater extent than someone who refuses to associate with them. To people who've been commenting with a bunch of comparisons in science "People who make space shuttles all have to be astronauts" "people who make MRI machines have to perform MRIs to do it", often in an effort to expose the assumed stupidity of my statement. This doesn't work. Game development is pretty different to scientific fields. A space shuttle or an MRI machine isn't made with a process as creative as a game, the work's grounded in an entirely different line of thought, and utilizes the logical side of the brain more. Yes, gaming also requires logic and reasoning, but it has more room for creativity.

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[–] Tantalus 3 points 170 points (+173|-3) ago 

It's like a filmmaker who doesn't watch movies. They would be laughed out of the room.

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[–] Broc_Lia 0 points 49 points (+49|-0) ago  (edited ago)

Or a designer working at Ford who "isn't really into car culture" and prefers to take the bus.

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[–] Asrien 1 points 17 points (+18|-1) ago 

Thank you! I was trying to think of an example that might make more sense.

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[–] glassgiants 1 points 3 points (+4|-1) ago 

To be fair, and provide another perspective: I've got a buddy who happens to be a filmmaker. He is a lone wolf type individual, and finds ways to do much of his productions by himself. He has explained to me that if he watches others films prior to working on a new project, he feels that his creative decisions have been subconsciously affected by his memories of these productions. Indeed, he has shown me edited project footage from several projects, he provided examples of each of his works he felt were representing of this idea, and surely enough the project he made while watching multitudes of film for inspiration resulted in a project that was inferior to his earlier project where he had just done nearly the entire project in isolation. When he referenced some of the films he had watched in his studies, it was easy to pick out shots and concepts that other filmmakers had applied in their films as the source of inspiration for some of the shots and ideas he had in his flick.

He told me that he does study works from great creatives, but prefers to read about them. Studying concepts and ideas vs. how to execute ideas that have already been done by others.

I myself prefer to study other artists, whether they be visual or aural artists, or even artists of the culinary arts. In this way, I feel that we influence and inspire one another.

I will say that everyone has a different workflow, regardless of the type of project. These video games, while technical undertakings centered around making a profit, the developers themselves are creating art, supposedly.

To comment on the original point above, isn't this why game developers hire game testers? You know, people that professionally play video games to provide a gamer perspective, while at the same time providing insight to the design and functionality of the production from a highly capable end user perspective?

TL;DR: Subconscious influencing of ideas; everyone has a different workflow; video game developers would do well to hire testers to make up for them not being gamers.

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[–] johnlocke90 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago  (edited ago)

That shit happens in indie filmmaking. The indie filmmaker will sneer at "mainstream" movies and only watch stuff in his obscure circle.

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[–] Easlern 1 points 9 points (+10|-1) ago 

Have you played Ridiculous Fishing? Vlambeer made that and it's a ton of fun! It's definitely not pretentious either- it's about fishing with machine guns and rockets. :)

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[–] toiletduck 0 points 3 points (+3|-0) ago 

I have enjoyed all of the games they've created so far. Luftrausers, Nuclear Throne, Super Crate Box, etc...

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[–] Asrien 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

That sounds interesting, I might give it a look sometime. :p

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[–] Broc_Lia 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

Even if their products are fun, it's bad press for someone in a company to act like they're above their customers.

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[–] Vithar42 0 points 3 points (+3|-0) ago 

I see a lot of confusion in this thread. I suspect many people didn't actually watch the full video. He never said they don't play the game or don't play games. He is making a distinction between two different communities of people who are connected to games, content creators and content consumers.

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[–] toiletduck 0 points 3 points (+3|-0) ago 

Strangely enough, the guy interviewed is behind Vlambeer, who makes some of my favorite games (Super Crate Box, Nuclear Throne, Ridiculous Fishing). I think as long as your final product is play worthy, the developers behind it and their propensity for gaming isn't that critical to the process.

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[–] Asrien 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

Alright, I respect your viewpoint but still think that being a gamer who develops games will be able to produce a more entertaining product. Since the passion and interest factors would add to the overall product.

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[–] Troll 2 points 111 points (+113|-2) ago  (edited ago)

Not every indie dev is like that, not even the majority. Just a small clique of opportunistic shitheads who push low effort shovelware garbage on Steam and they need bullshit and excuses like this to keep selling them. Luckily, most of them will die out like the Tale of Tales, thanks to Steam refund policy. Let me be blunt: if your game is not worth playing more than 2 hours, your game is not worth a single dime.

You want to play a good indie game that is not made by shitheads? Have this one: http://store.steampowered.com/app/335000

I just finished it today and I'm gonna play it one more time to see all the possibilities.

And just to add this. You don't need to be a gamer to make games, just like you don't need to read books to be a writer, but the quality of your product will be shit and everyone will laugh at you.

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[–] Konstamokh 2 points 23 points (+25|-2) ago 

I'd also recommend Dust: An Elysian Tail. It was made by one single guy and for that it's pretty awesome.

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[–] mammutoyou 1 points 11 points (+12|-1) ago 

I couldn't get past the furry factor in that game... Looked like a good game but... Shudder

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[–] SolarBear 1 points 2 points (+3|-1) ago 

A SINGLE dude? Shit. I'm EVEN more impressed, if that's possible. Dust is one of my favorite platform games in the history of ever.

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[–] Klaue 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

Cave Story was also made by a single guy - all of it, including music

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[–] the_madman 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

Played it through, fantastic game. Love it.

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[–] techrogue 0 points 4 points (+4|-0) ago 

I must be following the wrong sorts of indie gaming sites, because I've never heard of this game and it looks awesome.

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[–] Gamedude 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

If we are to recommend Indies. The best one i know so far that is not an AAA game is Overgrowth. Link. Now i do not intend to provide advertisements for that game, but it is something you should take a look at.

I apologise for the link to any mods that goes bananas against me.

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[–] normal_dude 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

Let me be blunt: if your game is not worth playing more than 2 hours, your game is not worth a single dime.

That's not always true, I've played some 2 hour games that I really enjoyed (The Stanley Parable comes to mind), I wouldn't pay more than around $10 for them though.

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[–] fluffingtonthefifth 25 points 56 points (+81|-25) ago  (edited ago)

Does a developer have to be a gamer to make games? A game typically has a lot of parts, and many people working on each of those parts. Do, for example, CG people have to be cinephiles to do their job properly? Nope. Of course there are positions where you have to understand and appreciate games like a gamer, but not every developer is in that position.

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[–] TheOneAndOnlyCrumpet 28 points 46 points (+74|-28) ago  (edited ago)

Does a developer have to be a gamer to make games?

Yes.

Also, stop crying in the comments because some people downvoted you and won't write out long passaged of text to explain their opinions to you. God, what a cry-baby.

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[–] EIMR 6 points 70 points (+76|-6) ago 

This isn't Reddit, here we give reasons and explanations.

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[–] fluffingtonthefifth 5 points 23 points (+28|-5) ago 

Your argument has convinced me.

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[–] BlueHats 0 points 6 points (+6|-0) ago 

If a game designer didn't play games, I'd be suspicious. If the shader programmer doesn't play games, then so what?

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[–] EpicNoob 0 points 3 points (+3|-0) ago 

I disagree.

I fixed computers for five years, the last thing I want to do when I get home is go on a computer.

The same can be said for almost any profession.

Mechanics don't wasn't to come home and think about vehicles.

Chefs don't want to come home after a long day of preparing food and prepare more food.

You also forget developers can work insanely long hours, they may have no time to themselves. Maybe they want to spend what little time they have doing stuff around the house and spending time with family.

How about you get a job as a game tester and see if you want to do anything game related when you get home.

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[–] smashinglyAwesome 0 points 22 points (+22|-0) ago  (edited ago)

its not a requirement but it would help if the developer is a gamer. he/she will know what the customer will like. if the developer is not gamer, we could have someone just cashing in a quick buck, business people making it all about the business ala EA style (we have 1 year 20 million buget how can we make the optimal game for a 200% profit). as a customer, i would be more inclined to buy the game knowing the developer is passionate about it.

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[–] shinjukuthief 1 points 8 points (+9|-1) ago 

I'm going to point out that at no point did he say he doesn't play games. He is trying to define the difference between developing a game and playing the game. It may help if he had explained that gamers primarily play games and developers create games (not to the exclusion of playing games). If you pay attention to what he says instead of getting caught up in the words used in one sentence much of what he talks about is wanting to provide more open and honest information on how games are developed. So that gamers have a better understanding of the work involved. I don't agree with everything he says about the customer base, but he has some interesting points.

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[–] fluffingtonthefifth 3 points 1 points (+4|-3) ago 

Ya, of course, I just don't buy that a game necessarily has to be created by a gamer. The scorn and derision that Rami's opinion has garnered in some circles strikes me as more of a knee-jerk reaction than a considered response.

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[–] lagadu 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago  (edited ago)

he/she will know what the customer will like.

That's not a developer's job, it's the product owner's. It's literally what that role exists for.

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[–] Laserchalk 0 points 5 points (+5|-0) ago 

Well I suppose there are jobs that don't require you to be a gamer to develop games but generally indie devs do most of the work where they actually have to design game mechanics. I would like to think you you need to be into games to understand how to make a game with great gameplay.

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[–] Nogrim 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago  (edited ago)

the guy making your intro screen, doesn't but if he is doing anything remotely linked to the actual gameplay he/she damn well better be.

if they don't even know if why some one would want to play it why would we?

it's sort of like the old "never trust a skinny chef" idea.

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[–] 7H3-L4UGH1NG-M4N 2 points 42 points (+44|-2) ago 

This mentality is why certain artsy indie devs make bad games like walking simulators.

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[–] sneakybells 2 points 21 points (+23|-2) ago 

Stanely's Parable was an incredible walking simulator. It was one of the first games I looked at and was surprised at the depth it had; It's a post modern masterpiece.

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[–] mammutoyou 1 points 20 points (+21|-1) ago 

For every SP, there's 5 games like "Sunset" made...

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[–] 7H3-L4UGH1NG-M4N 1 points 4 points (+5|-1) ago 

The Stanley Parable also had a point to it artistically and delivered it through its mechanics.

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[–] falonso 1 points 2 points (+3|-1) ago 

Check out the walking simulator I've been working on for the last 2 years! https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1773037999/reverence-the-ultimate-combat-experience

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[–] kronal 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago  (edited ago)

Interesting game but not the best ad strategy, Frank.

Congratulations on being greenlit, btw :-)

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[–] 123_456 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

I know someone told you not to advertise here, but your game seems pretty cool.

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[–] Alpha_Machine 6 points 39 points (+45|-6) ago 

Not every customer is worth the money they're going to you.

Oh please.

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[–] Robotsarecool 0 points 35 points (+35|-0) ago 

This is true.

If a customer buys your $5 product then rings your customer support line every day to complain, they weren't worth the $5. They cost you more than they gave you and if you stop pandering to them they will complain about you to all their friends either way.

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[–] merton 0 points 5 points (+5|-0) ago 

They cost you more than they gave you and if you stop pandering to them they will complain about you to all their friends either way.

Which is pretty much what the guy in the video says "Here is your money back, now thank you"

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[–] KyleHydesNotebook 2 points 16 points (+18|-2) ago 

How scummy can you be with a quote like that? If anyone, in any other business, talked down to their audience like this, they would be done. I cannot, for the life of me, figure out why these developers get away with this.

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[–] sneakybells 0 points 5 points (+5|-0) ago 

I think it's about pandering to your audience rather then making something that isn't representative of you as an artist. I like original works of art and they don't come from wondering "what will get me the most money." However, that doesn't mean you have to talk to down to your audience.

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[–] shippage 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

Because with very openly developed games devs rely on the community for feedback and support. When they let an obnoxious user in then it just brings down the whole community, as he says.

A negative user is like that annoying kid in class. They're just not worth the time there, they distract everyone and distract learning, so why have them in the class?

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[–] AeonicArchangel 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago  (edited ago)

I think that most of the people that play games don't care about who makes them. As long as the game distracts them for a reasonably long time, they think it's good. e.g. I think COD would not be nearly as popular with "casual gamers" if they cared how much of a scumbag Bobby Kotick is. The result is dev and companies like this surviving mostly on people that won't give them much loyalty.

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[–] Easlern 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago  (edited ago)

Well, Virginia Woolf and Mahler (as a couple examples off the top of my head) were notoriously elitist and they still found audiences for their work.

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[–] Enigmius1 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago 

Most progressive businesses acknowledge this these days. It used to be, as a customer, that you could walk into a business and make a huge scene and the expectation would be that the staff and management would bend over backwards to mollify you. Now they're often taught to ask you to leave. It doesn't matter how much you've spent over how long, if you can't behave as an adult, you're going to be sent away until you can.

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[–] monkeyfetus 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

I feel like you're deliberately taking this quote out of context

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[–] kivan117 0 points 34 points (+34|-0) ago 

Perhaps I'm just interpreting him differently or have a different perspective, but I think a lot of people here are missing what he's trying to say and placing too much emphasis on his terrible wording of rather valid points.

If someone is toxic to the game's community, they do not bring value to the game community. Not all players are equal in that sense and it's entirely possible that someone's presence in the game community does more damage than their money is worth.

Developing games is actual hard work but a lot of that work is shrouded in mystery and not really explained or shown to the eventual audience, the gamers. So the people creating the game and the people playing it will have very different perspectives on what a game is. Similarly, people who act in, direct, create the music for (etc etc) a movie have a very different perspective of what that movie eventually is when compared to the typical movie goer.

I don't think he's saying that "we hate games, we just make them" which is what everyone seems to be taking away from this. He's just saying the whole industry needs to better explain what it means to make the games and the effort involved, so that gamers have a better understanding of the process. Without that, their perspectives and expectations are very different and sometimes unrealistic.

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[–] shamari 0 points 20 points (+20|-0) ago  (edited ago)

Amen, I feel like no one actually watched the video and rather they're replying to the cherry-picked quote that OP posted to prove his own point.

Let's try to be better than that, alright guys?

The developer in this video actually has some very valid points, and this quote has been taken entirely out of context. Please watch the video if you're going to post an epic rant. After watching the entire video, I couldn't, for the life of me understand all the negative remarks in this thread, because - even as a consumer - this guy has some great points.

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[–] the_madman 0 points 9 points (+9|-0) ago 

Nobody watched the video is what the problem is.

It doesn't matter how good your voting system is, it's still as easy as ever to game simple minds.

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[–] BottomLine 0 points 3 points (+3|-0) ago  (edited ago)

I agree, I can't find much wrong with what he's saying either. I was expecting some SJW bullshit or something, but all he's saying is that there are some entitled/spoiled people who have no idea how much work it is to make a game and have unreasonable expectations. If those are the loudest voices, or they ruin/rile up the community it's hard for a single, or even a small group of developers to fix that again. Especially if their job is both PR and development.

Edit: as a (non-game) developer myself, I can understand they're not really gamers themselves. They simply don't have the time. Development is very hard work.

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[–] sudo_intellectual 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

When someone uses "toxic" to describe a person, their behavior, or their words, I immediately make negative assumptions about that someone. Aside from that, i find your comment is completely reasonable.

[–] [deleted] 1 points 31 points (+32|-1) ago 

[Deleted]

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[–] kitkatkevin 0 points 3 points (+3|-0) ago 

I really couldn't believe how blown out of proportion this was. He seems like a guy that really cares about maintaining a good community.

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[–] CptCmdrAwesome 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

100% agreed, this should be top comment.

I watched the whole video, and it's right. When you have people who decide they don't like a game, and proceed to spend 8+ hours in a single day bitching (completely unconstructively) about it, the correct response is "here's your money back, fuck off."

Trust me I have seen this happen. They are 100x more vocal than everyone else, add nothing useful to a community, and the sooner they are removed the better for all. I'm pretty sure this was the point actually being made.

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[–] sudo_intellectual 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

"The idea that making a game is like playing one is something that people have come to believe"

I'm curious who the hell thinks that? Seems ludicrous to me.

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[–] i_am_not_crazy 1 points 22 points (+23|-1) ago 

While I am, and have always been a gamer, he does make some valid points.

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[–] lubbocksux 1 points 19 points (+20|-1) ago 

Yeah, there were some quotes that sounded really bad if taken out of context but he was basically saying that it's ok to offer refunds to trolls and explain technical aspects of a game to people. His whole point, at least in the beginning, was that it's worth more to have a troll free community than to just make money off sales because of the detriments that come along with the trolls. I see absolutely nothing wrong with what he said.

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[–] merton 2 points 7 points (+9|-2) ago 

This, and his message could have been more summarize as "We are working, not gaming", because that guy is clearly a gamer, and to try and pretend he is not is just stupid.

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