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[–] Inara__Serra 3 points 14 points (+17|-3) ago 

Or just watches the show for thrills.

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[–] Artofchoke [S] 4 points 8 points (+12|-4) ago 

Terrifying possibility. Would explain a great deal.

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[–] Inara__Serra 1 points 6 points (+7|-1) ago 

Yeah, I've never been able to buy that omnipotent, omni-benevolent, "I have a plan for you" stuff. We're talking some serious sadistic voyeurism going on.

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[–] fuckyoutooo 0 points 3 points (+3|-0) ago 

What I don't understand is why the devoutly religious believe that they are important enough for some supreme being to take a personal interest in their lives out of the literal billions that exist on this earth.

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[–] Uncle_Tractor 1 points 2 points (+3|-1) ago 

Would also make worship utterly pointless.

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[–] JerkSock 5 points 0 points (+5|-5) ago 

God is nature, and nature inevitably has it's way with peoples that do not live in harmony with it.

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[–] Waiyu_Dudat 1 points 9 points (+10|-1) ago 

God is nature

This concept is not monotheistic at all. This is a polytheist mindset and is not comprehensible to any Jews or Muslims and most Christians. In fact, nature is below God, as God is "super-natural". Above and beyond nature. This also explains the Jews hatred for nature, as the more nature abounds, God must recede, for the two are competitive for attention. "God is a jealous God" and won't allow any of his subjects to even begin to appreciate nature as that distracts from worshipping Him.

I'm not disagreeing with you, just trying to point out the monotheistic mindset that pervades most things today.

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[–] Inara__Serra 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago 

You're saying that raping children and letting people die in religious wars over which particular fan-fic is correct is just nature.

Sorry. Insane idea.

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[–] NewAccountOldGoat 3 points 9 points (+12|-3) ago 

Kind of ignoring the idea of free will aren't we?

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[–] ANGRY_Hippopotamus 0 points 5 points (+5|-0) ago 

How does the notion of free will changes the argument?

If you could stop a defenseless person from being harmed, would you go "its the attacker's free will, so I will do nothing until after the harm is done"? This is, purportedly, what god does.

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[–] chirogonemd 1 points 2 points (+3|-1) ago 

You are applying a very human perspective on these events to the being of God. You are talking about defying universal principles of the creation of man and the universe to satisfy a moral concept of your own empathic processes. God, at no point, ever promised any one of his creations zero suffering, not until kingdom come. Which it hasn't. Free will opens up the world to the influence of evil, making everyone vulnerable. Nowhere does God suggest we are all immune to it. This idea that God should do this is simply a human one. An entitlement mentality for something you never had title to. The world and life are suffering. Not until the kingdom of Heaven is there the type of existence you suggest.

This is Earth. Not Heaven.

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[–] registereduser1 0 points 3 points (+3|-0) ago 

Free will is proof there is no god.

The fairy tale says the god character is omniscient, meaning all knowing. If this fairy tale character knows everything that ever was, is, or will be, you have no free will. Your imaginary friend already saw what you are going to do, you can not change it.

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[–] Piroko 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

And there being no god is not proof that we have free will.

Causality reigns supreme. We are deterministic beings made of deterministic things.

"Man can do what he wills, but he cannot will what he wills." -Arthur Schopenhauer

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[–] Piroko 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago  (edited ago)

Free will is an illusion. Your trajectory through spacetime is as deterministic as a cup pushed off a table.

You are made of deterministic things behaving deterministically in a deterministic void.

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[–] Artofchoke [S] 6 points 0 points (+6|-6) ago 

Free will is a religious concept with no rational basis. It doesn't exist.

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[–] ninjatacos 0 points 4 points (+4|-0) ago 

to say "free will is a religious concept" i assume you are trying to provide an arguement for determinism.

To make such an arguement, are you attempting to entice someone to change their mind? You disprove your own assertion if this is the case.

And if you are not concerned with changing minds, just trying to tell people they are dumb for believing free will? well in that scenario, you have made a value judgement, thay belief in "determinism" is preferrable to belief in "free will". This also undermines your point because in a determinist universe value systems do not exist.

Of course free will exists. that doesnt mean people develope and use it. Free will doesnt exist innately. many in the world behave as instinctual and automatically as animals. but the entire point of propoganda is to influence people, through their own free will, into accepting false beliefs.

[–] [deleted] 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago 

[Deleted]

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[–] NewAccountOldGoat 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago 

You could argue religion is a concept with no rational basis as well. But free will is part of many religious doctrines.

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[–] Nickodemus 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

How do you prove that? Not the question of religion, but that of free will not existing.

The way i think, we are constantly presented with choices. You can choose yes, no, or other. "Other" could be anything at all. Yes, shoot the rapist. No, do not shoot the rapist, Other, join the rapist, call the cops on the rapist, run over the rapist with your lawn mower, etc. etc. Infinitely variable - thus, you have free will.

Please, explain how the logic of lack of free will exists for you. Give me something to consider.

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[–] BoraxTheFungarian 0 points 7 points (+7|-0) ago 

Fuck your twisted 'no free-will' logic. You can't complain about what people do and at the same time say they have no free will. IT'S RETARDED.

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[–] Artofchoke [S] 1 points 1 points (+2|-1) ago 

OF COURSE IT'S RETARDED, but it doesn't have anything to do with me. Y'all niggas shooting the messenger, smfh

[–] [deleted] 2 points -2 points (+0|-2) ago 

[Deleted]

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[–] chirogonemd 0 points 3 points (+3|-0) ago 

This is absolute horseshit. Free will was a gift for those God loved most of all His creation. This love for Man was one of the disposing factors that led to the enmity of Lucifer and his insurrection against God.

Free will is not a curse, however, it is a test. God is very clear about this. It opens the world to the influence of evil. That is the test. Your free will, or use thereof, demonstrates your character. This opens up people to the evil acts of others, certainly.

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[–] Martel-Sobieski 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

No fucking shit it was given as a curse in the sense it was given as a test and mankind failed thus making it a curse. Most of the actual suffering humanity brings is done by itself. God will punish groups for the actions of individuals. Don't like it? Tough shit, humanity lost that opportunity with original sin.

The child is raped because of humanitys free will. He's not some super hero to call upon whenever you have a problem. He's God.

If your society is wicked and corrupt then innocents will suffer. If society had actually followed the teachings and acted righteous as a group then that would not happen.

You can't blame God for a child being raped. Thats on the rapist.

It's not his job to stop bad things from happening. Whats the worst that'll happen? You die? If you lived a righteous life why would that matter in a religious sense?

Mankind does wicked things to one another because mankind is inherently wicked. They failed the test. Through good works you can become righteous and make up for your nature.

Thats the problem with you atheist faggots, these supposed "gotcha" things are really a misunderstanding of the concepts themselves. They think they do but they don't really.

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[–] adolfshrektler 1 points 5 points (+6|-1) ago 

kek all the christcucks here still believing in their kike religion, good little goyim

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[–] cptmonk 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

Almost as bad as using 4chins speak outside of 4 chins

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[–] Butterbread 4 points 5 points (+9|-4) ago  (edited ago)

What is God though? If it was a force that made the universe or that allows physics to happen now or an entity that will come in the future, then what does she have to say?

But let's say God is watching and can change things. She expects God would intervene for every mishap, accident, or evil? That's heaven, not Earth. What if this life is Hell? What if it is basically a free for all to develop our character or root out evil? What does she have to say about these possibilities?

She may be right. There may be no God, but of course she may be wrong. No hope and a closed mind is a shitty way to get through life.

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[–] Artofchoke [S] 5 points 0 points (+5|-5) ago 

If pain and misery and struggle and being victimized as a child are what's required to 'develop character' under this thing, that says quite a bit about the intentions of the developer of that system.

[–] [deleted] 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago 

[Deleted]

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[–] Butterbread 3 points -2 points (+1|-3) ago 

I can't pretend to know the intentions of a God that might have created this universe. What if that God force is not here at the moment? What if the power of that God force is limited? My point is that there are too many possibilities, and really no logical reason to conclude something hopeless. The best one can hope to conclude on this is "I don't know."

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[–] Artofchoke [S] 6 points -1 points (+5|-6) ago 

Do you really think a world where the innocent aren't brutalized equates to heaven? That's pitiful. To aspire to so little.

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[–] 12173031? 1 points 6 points (+7|-1) ago 

I would not want to live in a world where the suffering of innocents were not possible. It would be heaven. No one would strive for anything because no one would have to strive against anything. What you expect of reality is absurd.

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[–] Pumbadog 1 points 1 points (+2|-1) ago 

Trust in God and gives thanks for the good and the bad. Pray for peace on earth and everlasting life in heaven.

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[–] Butterbread 1 points 1 points (+2|-1) ago 

A world where innocent people are magically not brutalized isn't some kind of heaven? How is that pitiful or aspiring to "so little"? I'm really not understanding what you are saying.

[–] [deleted] 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

[Deleted]

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[–] ANGRY_Hippopotamus 0 points 4 points (+4|-0) ago 

Theists: it's the attacker's free will, so god can't do squat about it. Until the attacker dies, unless he repents of course.

And then they wonder why we think either there is no god or god is evil.

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[–] Artofchoke [S] 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago 

I can understand half of that, but the sacrifice... Its unacceptable, it vile. If the blood god of Abraham was willing to establish a creation where the innocent and helpless would suffer the most, FUCK HIM

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[–] chirogonemd 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

Yes, this is very clearly expelled in the texts. This life is a test. Free will itself, both a gift and burden. Free will is a test. And despite the fact your own ego and small human mind think this life is the "be all end all", it is very small in the bigger picture. Eternity looks pretty big compared to any temporal suffering in this mortal life on Earth. And who is it for any human to attempt to judge the order of someone who's canvas is space, and whose scope it time itself. How small.

You think God is evil because you posit your idea of moral order onto a being so far beyond you that you cannot comprehend it. "But I want God to be just like me!".

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[–] ANGRY_Hippopotamus 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago  (edited ago)

You think this entire universe was made to test you for a reward of eternal life, yet I'm the one with the ego. Right.

I don't think god is evil. There is no god. The world makes far more sense when you realise this; then "evil" is something that simply happens because the universe is indifferent, no need for mysterious beyond understanding reasons, tests or rewards.

All the justice, all the goodness that will ever exist are the ones we make ourselves.

[–] [deleted] 1 points 4 points (+5|-1) ago 

[Deleted]

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[–] ANGRY_Hippopotamus 0 points 4 points (+4|-0) ago  (edited ago)

No we would blame him (if he existed) from not preventing damage caused to an innocent person in the name of this "free will" or for whatever "mysterious" reason.

I will extend you the courtesy of believing that if you could stop an innocent from being harmed, you would. Which makes you morally superior to god.

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[–] ShitArchon 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

Apparently if a cop stops a criminal instead of saying "go ahead and rob that bank, then I'll punish you afterwards" he's violating the criminal's free will.

"But this is earth not heaven"

Why the fuck does that matter? Does being in an alternate dimension negate morality?

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[–] chirogonemd 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago  (edited ago)

You were never promised the type of existence you are demanding. Its funny that people demand this from the creator. They didn't create, but they demand it. "Well if he has that power, he should use it like I'd use it."

Your morality is bound to your mortal existence and your very finite intelligence of the order of the universe and creation. Your view of the larger order is so truncated you could not possibly understand the why's of literally anything. To YOU, saving an innocent life seems obvious, because of your brain's empathic processes and because A SINGLE LIFE IS ALL YOU KNOW. Your own personal ego considers that life of the ultimate importance. But nowhere, at no point, did God commit to protecting all of his creation from harm. In fact, free will defies this. It opens the world up to the influence of evil, making each of us vulnerable to the actions of free will by someone who is evil.

The type of existence you speak of was not promised until the coming of the kingdom of Heaven. It hasn't. Your definition of an all powerful being only being moral - according to your human set of morals - if he prevents the harm of innocents is purely small and naive.

If you happened upon a maker of clay pots, and you witnessed that potter destroying one of his creations as it exited the kiln. He simply threw it into a corner with other broken pots, who would you be to tell him he was wrong? He is the creator. If he decided to create a pot only to destroy it, that would fall under his prerogative. If you were a pot, I'd imagine you'd find it horrible. But the greater order beneath the potter's pursuit of his vision would be beyond your grasp as well.

One of the difficult things of Christianity to reconcile with, and is a challenge for almost everyone I've ever met, is understanding this. For example, the pharoah was literally a human God created to destroy. Wrapping your head around this is difficult, because it defies this paternal idea we posit onto God, which must be the nurturing mother/father who holds us close and keeps us safe. That isn't God. Not even close. Life is suffering, and God has made that clear. Life is the test. The kingdom of Heaven is paradise.

Atheists seem to want to make arguments that Christian theology is wrong, and God doesn't exist, because Earth doesn't look like Heaven. Well, it amounts to a great big straw man. Get the theology right if you want to make an argument, is all I have to say. If you don't want to believe in God, fine. But don't assume a scenario God never promised, or that your idea of moral order could possibly replace that of a being which created the entire universe and whose scope of vision for that creation is time itself. Despite the fact your own ego and your mortality considers your single life of the greatest personal importance, you have to begin thinking bigger. That this single mortal life may be nothing in the big picture.

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[–] Artofchoke [S] 1 points 1 points (+2|-1) ago 

We don't have free will.

[–] [deleted] 1 points 0 points (+1|-1) ago  (edited ago)

[Deleted]

[–] [deleted] 0 points 4 points (+4|-0) ago 

[Deleted]

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[–] Artofchoke [S] 1 points 3 points (+4|-1) ago 

Emotions are religious? Fascinating.

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[–] unclejimbo 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

If religion is emotional I would assume the inverse to be true.

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[–] prairie 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

They are equivalent when it comes to making non-arguments based on them.

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