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[–] luckypunk 1 points 9 points (+10|-1) ago 

There's also: "When and how did you choose to be straight?"

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[–] toobaditworks 3 points -1 points (+2|-3) ago  (edited ago)

Note: I'm not religious nor am I a republican or a democrat.

Gay people might have been born gay but you do have a choice of what you do in your life. Straight people can choose to be gay if they want to. Gay people can choose to be straight. Just as a man can choose to not wear a dress and instead wear mens clothing. That is what choice means. If you're making the issue that gay people can't make choices for themselves then you're saying that gay people don't have that capability like the rest of us. And I'm sorry but that isn't true. Everyone has a choice. You do choose what you do in life. You're not born with a certain destiny. You make your own destiny. What you do however is up to you. It is your choice.

I for one don't give a damn if gay people get married but I think government shouldn't have anything to do with it. Why do you need a permission slip from the government to love someone and be with them forever?

If it's about tax breaks that married people get then that's another issue. I think tax breaks should also be stopped. Taxes in general should be stopped. Taxes should be for things you buy. Not taxes on your net income. And nobody should get tax breaks.

If it's about taking away things from religious people for revenge because a religious person hurt you in the past you should be the bigger person and not resort to such tactics.

Thanks for reading.

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[–] Yamajac 1 points 9 points (+10|-1) ago 

Having gay sex is not the same as being gay.

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[–] fruitViking [S] 2 points 3 points (+5|-2) ago 

I think that Dan Savage gave the best response to this. Dr. Ben Carson claimed that being gay is a choice and that "prison proves it". Savage replied with

Dear Dr. Carson,

If being gay is a choice, prove it. Choose it. Choose to be gay yourself. Show America how that's done, Ben, show us how a man can choose to be gay. Suck my dick. Name the time and the place and I'll bring my dick and a camera crew and you can suck me off and win the argument.

Very sincerely yours,

Dan Savage

So far, Dr. Carson has not responded.

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[–] IdeologyIsHuman 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

**I for one don't give a damn if gay people get married but I think government shouldn't have anything to do with it. Why do you need a permission slip from the government to love someone and be with them forever? **

You're fine to advocate that position, but to be consistent you would either need to fight to revoke the role of government in ALL marriages, or simply extend that involvement into gay marriages. An all or nothing approach.

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[–] luckypunk 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

You read a lot into such a short statement.

Yes, you can choose not to act on your nature.

To what tactics am I resorting? Could you be clearer?

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[–] lastdeadmouse 0 points 5 points (+5|-0) ago 

So... I've known these identical twins for a while, one gay, one straight. I now know what to think, thanks to you :)

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[–] AgriGrunt 1 points 0 points (+1|-1) ago 

I am confused. Identical twins do not suggest that being gay is not inherent to the individual. It strongly suggests that there is no genetic predisposition, but it does not suggest homosexuality is not inherent. A child in the womb does not receive the same amount of nutrients, hormones, or epigenetic encoding. The majority of people that study homosexuality believe that epigenetic factors have a key role in the processes. There still is no choice by the individual. However, the pictures stance still stands.

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[–] jibrish 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

Isn't this the same argument some theists use? "It doesn't disprove XX".

There still is no choice by the individual.

This is silly to say. There's not enough evidence to claim it's not a choice so there's not enough evidence to say this line.

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[–] lastdeadmouse 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

I'm not saying that it isn't in someway inherent, but it is pretty solid evidence against it being genetic (though doesn't exclusive rule out a genetic predisposition).

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[–] farmer- 0 points 4 points (+4|-0) ago 

i upped this post, but i am wondering why this is in the "atheism" subverse? I'm christian and I don't believe homosexuality is a choice. In fact id be more inclined to believe that sexuality exists on a spectrum where most people have bisexual tendencies. by posting this in atheism, are you implying that this is an anti-religious statement (because i don't see why it should be here otherwise) or are you just sharing it in the atheism subv because you just want to share an off topic idea?

Not trying to start a flame war, just genuinely curious. please refrain from aggressive responses ^_^

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[–] fruitViking [S] 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago 

It's because the vast majority of opposition to gay marriage is religious, and certainly all of the organizations trying to "preserve traditional marriage" are religious. (Unless you know of any secular ones? I've sure never heard of one.)

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[–] farmer- 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago 

ohhh, i see. fair enough!

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[–] Rivarr 0 points 3 points (+3|-0) ago 

Fuck me. Are these commenters typical of what Voat's gonna be. Top comment - homosecxuality is a mental illness.

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[–] Sunnybrooke 0 points 4 points (+4|-0) ago 

The diversity of viewpoints is refreshing, yes?

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[–] Rivarr 0 points 5 points (+5|-0) ago 

As refreshing as hearing a creationist tell me the world is 6000 years old.

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[–] Mosin91 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

Maybe the more disruptive elements with fringe ideals think they have a chance to get in on a ground floor and establish the supremacy of their ideals in communities that don't share them?

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[–] jibrish 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

Or a funny troll comment is getting upvoted.

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[–] o_V_o 1 points 3 points (+4|-1) ago  (edited ago)

Does anyone actually say that though?

While it may not be a "choice", you aren't really "born that way" either. Were you born to prefer your favorite color, food, song? Was that preference a "choice" or a by-product of experience? The very concept of "preference" implies experience (to some degree or another.. which means everything from merely hearing someone talk about it to having personal, first-hand exposure).

Not to mention that the whole "born that way" thing was just a reaction to religion/the church claiming it was a "choice" (which is, ironically, the more liberal stance.. choice? what's that?!)... when, really, they were saying that it was a "choice" to do your part to help keep up the numbers of their particular tribe/religion.

It's just like being against eating pork.. at one time there was a good reason for it — just like there was a time when non-reproductive sex was actually a waste of resources. Whereas today, pork is a lot safer to eat and limiting reproductive sex is actually the more socially responsible decision.

Personally I'm all for gay sex, but I don't think attaching it to an identity is healthy... especially when you're pushing it on kids who don't know themselves yet — everyone goes through awkward stages were they feel like they don't fit in with the expectations whatever group (be it your classmates, or "men"/"women" in general)... that doesn't mean that you're in the wrong body, or that you're supposed to act a specific way, or that you must like certain other unconnected things that just happen to be part of the "lifestyle" characterizations being applied to you (which is directly tied to the commodification of identity politics that went mainstream in the 90s).

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[–] bayesianqueer 1 points 4 points (+5|-1) ago  (edited ago)

Personally I'm all for gay sex, but I don't think attaching it to an identity is healthy...

The only reason that it's an identity is because of societies homophobia and heteronormativity. When I talk about the movie my husband and I went to last night and that he spilled a coke on me, I have two choices: either refer to him as my spouse and play the weird don't use pronouns game, refer to him as a friend, just not tell the story, or make the person I'm speaking to aware of an identity with which they pigeonhole me - their gay coworker. It only becomes an identity when others see you as abnormal.

While it may not be a "choice", you aren't really "born that way" either. Were you born to prefer your favorite color, food, song? Was that preference a "choice" or a by-product of experience?

A better comparison is actually our model of genetic disease. This is not to say that homosexuality is a disease, but genetics is still genetics. Say we are talking about the Breast Cancer (BrCa) gene. While women without the gene have a 12% chance of getting breast cancer in their lifetimes, women who have that a harmful BrCa 1 mutation have about a 50:50 shot of getting breast cancer in their lifetimes. Now of women with that mutation, about half never will. There are other influences too, diet and exercise, hormone use, and today whether one gets a prophylactic mastectomy. So whether or not a woman will get cancer can't be predicted with certainty. However, we know that some women (with certain BrCa mutations) were born much more likely to get it. Moreover, while there are a myriad of things an individual woman can do to increase or decrease her risk over a lifetime, they can't choose to not get cancer.

With homosexuality, there are some genes that strongly predispose to homosexual orientation. (If you are interested google: gay uncle gene, or CAH in Ashkenazim women.) There is certainly some influence that happens before and after birth, but pretty much by gradeschool, the die has already been cast. Moreover the things that we know that predispose to homosexual orientation aren't exposure to LGBT people.

especially when you're pushing it on kids who don't know themselves yet

It doesn't matter if you "know yourself" at age 10. Exposure to gay adults doesn't influence kids to become gay any more than exposure to straight adults makes them straight. Hell, most gay adults are the products of very straight parents and were raised in environments where almost everyone appears straight. When I was growing up (70's and 80's in the south) the first time I remember meeting someone who was gay was when I was 17. I didn't know that faggot was derogatory toward gay men until I was a teenager.

However we do know that kids who have been exposed to LGBT people do end up a little different as adults. They tend to be much less homophobic in the same way that kids who grow up with positive experiences of people of different races are less prejudiced against POC.

that doesn't mean that you're in the wrong body, or that you're supposed to act a specific way, or that you must like certain other unconnected things that just happen to be part of the "lifestyle" characterizations being applied to you

I have never felt that way. In fact, if anything I have experienced pressure to be less stereotypically gay. Being 'straight acting' is considered a benefit by a lot of men in the gay dating scene. Sure, lots of us like to dress in rainbows and glitter for pride once a year, but I see that as no different from Mardi Gras in NOLA. (Having experienced both, I would say gay pride events are a bit more sophisticated and demure.)

edit: wurds

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[–] Yamajac 1 points 4 points (+5|-1) ago 

Being gay is not a choice, at all. You are born that way.

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[–] jibrish 1 points 1 points (+2|-1) ago 

That hasn't been proven. I'm not taking a stance on the issue but if you're going to talk about it then be correct. There's suggestive evidence but nothing concrete or even all that close.

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[–] o_V_o 2 points 0 points (+2|-2) ago  (edited ago)

Perhaps you could try harder to demonstrate for the class that you don't actually understand anything I said. If you're gonna pull this shit, might I suggest staying on reddit? So sick of dealing with thoughtless idiots like you... that 's why I left... of course your faggot ass had to follow suite. (yes, "faggot" in the old school sense.. "an annoying woman.").

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[–] ReCat 1 points 1 points (+2|-1) ago 

If you don't think people say that, i am legitimately extremely surprised. Yes, they do. I personally know some parents who've told me that many times. :/

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[–] Sunnybrooke 0 points 3 points (+3|-0) ago 

I'm pretty sure that a 'certain percentage' of gays are born that way. However with that being said, I would have to follow that I strongly believe another 'certain percentage' have experienced childhood sexual/abuse. They truly do seem to be acting out unresolved issues. This is openly encouraged by the current narrative of popular culture indicating that being gay is an acceptable way to deal with repressed abuse.

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[–] CaptOblivious 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

This is openly encouraged by the current narrative of popular culture indicating that being gay is an acceptable way to deal with repressed abuse.

Say WHAT? I'm going to have to call for a citation on that, and from something more credible than some sjw's blog.

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[–] fruitViking [S] 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

Just because you "strongly believe" something, that doesn't make it true.

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[–] Sunnybrooke 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

Exactly! That's why I said 'I strongly believe' and not 'this is an absolute fact'.

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[–] zealdna 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago 

What does this have to do with atheism ?

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[–] fruitViking [S] 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

You don't know what gays have to do with atheism?

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[–] zealdna 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

That's right. I'm asking why a topic about gay marriage is on the atheist forum.

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[–] Buzzfriendly 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago 

I think people are born to seek companionship. I think most people seek out the companionship that appeals to them. I liked large breasted women, was I born that way I got know fucking idea, but I ended up marrying a large breasted woman, actually I did it twice. I dated small breasted women but I ultimately I sought out the lager ones. I can't imagine someone telling me I should be with a small breasted and that I have a choice. Of course I have a choice and I choose large breasted women. Were I gay I suppose it would be a big dick. You like what you like. What does all of this mean to you? Nothing because it makes no difference in your life and you really should living your own life.

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[–] Mosin91 0 points 3 points (+3|-0) ago 

But teh Bible! And mah morals! And teh family! Wild goat sex in the streets with people marrying their toaster! Oh the horrors!

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[–] Buzzfriendly 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

I might just attend a wedding where a toaster is involved.

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