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[–] Disappointed 1 points 20 points (+21|-1) ago 

I think the main thing is that no level 2 mod should be able to invite another Lvl 2 mod in a system sub. If there are no level 2 mods in System subs then that would solve the issue as well. I would also like to see the promise PuttitOut made long ago about user input being developed put into practice as a philosophy going forward. Shit has happened and he hasn't had time to code things like that and might not for a while. That's understandable and fair enough but at least lets stop the ability of current lvls mods on System subs being able to invite whoever they want on what is supposed to be community owned subverses. Let's have the users choose a few of these janitors maybe, even if it's just nominating users with admin final approval or vice versa, in an informal setting. Lets involve the community in some of the decisions going forward, even if it's just small things, wherever possible so that no one is blindsided and no one can say dodgy shit transpired.

[–] [deleted] 1 points 9 points (+10|-1) ago 

[Deleted]

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[–] Disappointed 0 points 6 points (+6|-0) ago 

That can work. Maybe the new rules don't have to be retrospectively applied to current mods and the users can have input as to how many they want to keep on each sub? Personally I'll be requesting demotion or resigning completely if someone is happy to delete the spam on v/sports every day. I havent put a lot of thought into it besides being adamant allowing level 2 system sub mods to add whoever they want is ridiculous and a mess waiting to happen and wanting a limit on subs modded across all levels.

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[–] SaneGoatiSwear 3 points 6 points (+9|-3) ago 

+1! community involvement!

putts done a lot of hard work on this!

i agree no lvl 2 mods bringing new lvl 2 in, or lower.

do you think it's a good idea for lvl 3 and 4 as well, no bringing in buddies?

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[–] Disappointed 0 points 6 points (+6|-0) ago  (edited ago)

I'm not sure if lvl3 and 4 can with the new rules which is why I didn't mention them but definitely they should be restricted from inviting. Lvl 2 and down. Also I think because he's done a lot of hard work is why we need to dot all the i's this time so there's no risk of some one intent on ruining voat getting on a system sub so easily and it's something they don't have to go back to. Do it right this one time.

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[–] 6479466? 0 points 5 points (+5|-0) ago 

I agree with this mostly.

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[–] 6471129? 0 points 12 points (+12|-0) ago 

Can they add level 2 mods and why is that allowed? You didnt really address that in the last thread despite users making good points. IF that has been the vector of attack before why is it allowed? If system subs are meant to be protected from malicious users why is it allowed?

.

I cant see any reason why a level 2 would need to invite another level 2 to a system sub, can you? If I'm a level 1 mod Im going to be reluctant to put a level 2 mod on my sub because I know they can invite anyone they want. Askvoat was trashed by a group of users invited by a level 2 mod. v/pics recently had a mod added by the Mod of that sub who you know nothing about. The users weren't asked about it at all. Do you want users to have input into who is modding? Homersimpson down there mentions a rare case scenario where it may cause some inconvenience if a level 2 cant add users. You admins have had to intervene twice now on system subs and once on v/niggers because lvl 2 can invite as many level 2 as they want. Thats my input on it.

Those are my two posts from the other thread.

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[–] 6479508? 0 points 7 points (+7|-0) ago 

IF that has been the vector of attack before why is it allowed?

Does anything more need to be said after this? lol

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[–] Cynabuns 2 points 1 points (+3|-2) ago 

There are tons of smaller niche subs that have multiple L2's and they all contribute and have fun in their contributions to the sub.

I think it's important to clearly distinguish that L2's on system subs only should not be able to invite other L2's, but that this could be perfectly acceptable on the niche subs.

That being the case, seems as though Admins need to create moderator levels for system subs and moderator levels for the rest of the site.

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[–] 6471555? 0 points 10 points (+10|-0) ago  (edited ago)

I'm against lvl 2 mods being able to recruit other level 2 mods that should be a level 1 and Admin only thing.

I. All Level 2 mods currently in system subs need to be converted to janitor status. No L2 mods in system subs.

Janitor seems like more than enough? Can any current experienced system sub mods(maybe @Reacher) tell me anything they think they would miss from lvl 2 from lvl 3 janitor?

III. A janitor removal subverse needs to be set up. It would function like v/subverserequest. Users could petition to have abusive janitors removed. This would require clear guidelines to be set for @system moderators.

No ProtectVoat is good enough for this despite what a few trolls say. The majority of the community has decided this is the place for mod abuse.

II. There needs to be a hard cap on how many system subverses a single user can be part of the mod team in. I see no problem with the current 3 sub limit.

I'll leave this up to the reportspammer people to argue out. Some sort of limit is needed though.

[–] [deleted] 0 points 6 points (+6|-0) ago 

[Deleted]

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[–] Disappointed 0 points 4 points (+4|-0) ago  (edited ago)

What if one(or two) of you was a janitor and one level 4(or any mix of these two positions). Would you still be able to run the sub as a team like this? @Innocentbystander @violentlight

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[–] Disappointed 0 points 4 points (+4|-0) ago  (edited ago)

At first glance this looked like a tiered system where level 3 would have all the powers of lvl 4 + some others but @fuzzyword's post seems to indicate different.

janitors to have access to the subs css

Absolutely not and no sidebar access to make rules or change the guidelines of the sub either especially on system subs.

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[–] Cynabuns 0 points 3 points (+3|-0) ago 

If you're demoted from L2 to L3, you will not have access to CSS, and L2's need the access to note sub updates and whatnot in the sidebar. Having been an L3/Janitor for a few days now, no CSS access and no Sidebar access.

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[–] 6505089? 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago 

I think janitors are best left without CSS access. Going forward maybe add only level 3 and 4 to system subs. That leaves you existing ones to sort out what to do with.

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[–] InnocentBystander 0 points 9 points (+9|-0) ago 

My 2cents:

L2 system mods don't need the ability to add new L2 mods. In over a year, we've only had to change the modlist once in /v/videos, so waiting on admins for that would be fine. But, L2 mods should be able to add L4, and maybe L3 mods. If a sub wants to bring someone in to help with css, there is no need to have to wait on admins.

Dropping existing L2 mods to L3. I'm not against it, but there are some questions that need to be cleared up. Can an L3 mod still access/change the css? And who then decides who gets added as a janitor? Is that something that the admins would have to handle for every system sub, or are the janitors going to be added by existing mods? If so, then at least on L2 mod will be needed.

[–] [deleted] 1 points 9 points (+10|-1) ago  (edited ago)

[Deleted]

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[–] Cuckbot 1 points 8 points (+9|-1) ago  (edited ago)

Right now it's not clear to me if L2 mods can add other L2 mods.

They have been able to do it for over a year: https://voat.co/v/voatdev/396670

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[–] Cuckbot 0 points 8 points (+8|-0) ago 

Preventing adding new mods by level 2 should be a no brainer. No one has bought up any decent argument so far it except maybe a level 1 will go on vacation or down the track a sub may be busy enough to need it. We have had 3 big incidents where letting level 2 mods recruit other levels 2 mods has caused huge issues. For some reason it has stayed a "feature" for the last 14 months despite the trouble it has caused and barely any benefit.

Limits on subverses by mods and janitors need to be 3 at least till Voat as a community gets used to having these janitors around and seeing if they stick to just spam after a stretch of "ownership" of the sub.

Janitor status for system sub mods unless I see a good argument why they need to be level 2.

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[–] VictorSteinerDavion 0 points 8 points (+8|-0) ago 

Roles

  • L0 / [Voat Owners] Atko and Putitout and maybe a limited number of others when hired

  • L1 / Owner : Can add/remove/clean/graphic/everything
    Maximum 3 permitted L1 per sub. This is to slow the ability of hostile takeovers because the original owner can only be bumped if the other two agree.
    In order to stop churn, L1 can only add/remove 1 person in a 3 month period. This should also encourage people to take L1 seriously and work at being a good L2 for a long enough time to make it boring for the low effort trolls

  • L2 / Mod : Doing it for the community. Cannot add equivalent level mods, can add L3 only, can remove L3 only
    Can delete posts, block spam. A person must be L2 for 6 months minimum before having the ability to apply for L1 roles

  • L3 / Janitor : Can only block spam, distinguish content only.
    Nothing more

  • L4 / Designer : Able to access stylesheet and modify flairs only.

Basically, the only person who can add/remove mods of all levels is Level 0 (atko/puttutout) and L1
L2 mods have no more power than to overuse the ban hammer, which L0 and L1 can deal with directly.

The entire issue with reddit etc is the priveledge escalation hack, simply remove that ability and we allow the community to self regulate by simply not participating in subs they don't want to.
A sub with no participation is the sole fault of the L1 group.

Putting time requirments on roles makes it much harder to pull stupid crap and also makes comunity leadership have confidence because of the implied stability in the management group.

If enough people complain about an L1 user the L0 team have a method of removing them without killing a verse, due to two other L1's being present, and a long list of L2's who can step up.

*I'm only slightly drunk, so if it has flaws etc boo hoo

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[–] xeemee 1 points 8 points (+9|-1) ago 

is this going to end up with 99 mod levels down the road?

Putt is apparently going to be adding another level tomorrow to accommodate subs that set the 'only authed users can post' setting (which i support)

but how far could this go? surely more new roles/levels will be added at some point

i think a different method by which users can assign roles might be more flexible and require less work (coding), whereby, when you add a user, you individually select the permissions you want to grant them - this covers all the bases and perhaps somewhat future-proofs the system insomuch as you don't have to keep hard-coding in new levels

        POST    DELETE    BAN    CSS    FLAIR    etc...
USER      X       X                       X

@PuttItOut - possible suggestion on an alternative method to handle permissions and new mod levels without having to re-code

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[–] PuttItOut 0 points 12 points (+12|-0) ago 

I totally agree, granular control of permissions is the ideal, but a lot of new code would have to be written to implement it, hence why we went the route we did. We only had 1 days to dev, test, and deploy this change.

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[–] Disappointed 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago 

Homer has suggested something like this I believe.

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