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[–] Fact_Checking_Alien ago 

I think it's becoming clear civility has completely broken down at this point. I think it ridiculous to propose we haven't been discussing physical appearance, because absolutely nobody has been talking about psychology and character reactions. Nobody. That's not at all what any of this has been about.

But again, the crux is: If you want something, make it. The successful people are making games which sell, with characters who are most visually appealing. What you claim as "diversity" in terms of "handsome, ugly, strong, weak, fat, skinny" is ridiculous, because a lot of enemies in games certainly are ugly. A lot of NPC's are certainly weak compared to the protagonist and antagonists. A lot of people certainly will be fat or skinny, and shot as NPC's in Grand Theft Auto. You don't want diversity - you want to prevent ideals from being presented in media.

I also never said "all males want X". I'm saying it sells more. If you disagree, make a game of the type with such characters, normalize them as fat and ugly or whatever, and prove you can sell it. Be positive, and stop winge-ing about it.

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[–] Bastou ago 

because absolutely nobody has been talking about psychology and character reactions. Nobody. That's not at all what any of this has been about.

That's exactly my point!

My first reply was to clarify Mrs Sarkeesian's position and what she's trying to say, but too many people dismiss her as soon as they perceive she's a feminist. Many feminists I've heard about have very sensible things to say and logically sound arguments. And too many people arguing with them use nothing but fallacies to attack them personally without much logic. Physical appearance and personality of fictional characters go together. Mrs Sarkeesian pledges for better written female characters first, and if we can make them look like actual women as well, all the best.

a lot of enemies in games certainly are ugly.

Exactly my point! I never talked about the role male characters had, they can be anything from the hero to the enemy to the NPC. But all of them, if they're female, will fall in the same physical and personality mold!

You don't want diversity - you want to prevent ideals from being presented in media.

This is completely ridiculous. It's not what I want at all, but it seems you can't even understand what I write. You're right about one thing though : it's completely useless to argue with you. Anything I write you morph it to fit your personal idea of me which has nothing to do with reality. So I'll stop replying about this particular issue. Have fun in your fantasy life where you don't have to understand anything that is said by someone who disagrees with you!

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[–] Fact_Checking_Alien 0 points 1 point (+1|-0) ago 

I want to thank you for participating in the conversation so far, even when you perceive being misunderstood. I think I can see where the crux of our disagreement is, after reflecting upon it, and I think it is how we perceive the consequences. I perceive the consequences as resulting in less, not more, diversity - and specifically attempting to repress that beauty of the human form we idealize because we like it. So when you think women are written badly, I think of all the really awesome characters I've personally liked who are written well. I also think of a lot of badly written games, but that's the thing: It's not sexism, it's bad writing, which I don't think you can "fight" because a lot of games (particularly action games) have no particular need for amazing writing over game mechanics.

I also want to mention that women in games, being protagonists or otherwise strong, will adopt the appearance of being very physically fit. A lot of modern game models for women are actually based on athletic or physically fit women, because art that attempts to model reality must draw from reality. Therefore, my reply to you, is "of course they fit a similar physical mold". Which is why, by consequence of arguing you want this to change, you end up with less sensible characters (physically fit ones in most cases) or less diversity by excluding physically fit ones.

I think it unfortunate you internalize being disagreed with personally. Instead of trying to figure out why I am thinking or writing what I have, you've characterized me to fit people who've disagreed with you in the past. I took the time, and this delay, to try and figure out why you think the things you do, and came up with the realization we are approaching the problem at opposite ends. I only ask you take time to contemplate my end of it, and the consequences of your end of it, to better understand my concerns. As I have tried to do with yours.