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[–] Nadeshda 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

This is excellent!

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[–] Goater 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago  (edited ago)

Hi Teran,

This is all very presumptuous and not quite what you are after, but some idea of what personally I'm ready to contribute as far as foreign country projects, as GoatsGulch represents my values without exception.

If my abilities as far as contributions in time, money or other aid aren't to your requirements or we're not of compatible personalities/values after more time spent talking and, this comment is a good template for other gulches that may interest me or I have some ideas which may be of use at least.

As far as this Gulch:

If a number of you show serious interest in West Texas I can head that way and I've got plenty of space for you to pitch a tent, build a bunker, or what have you.

Could you give out a bit more info about the property or link to it if already posted? If people are going to put in any serious capital investments are you able to subdivide, so that people can own their own land parcels?

E.g I'd be happy to pay community strata and a house site currently, with an aim to build a first modular dwelling Summer 18. No HOA style shit though, resource management and division yes, but no picket fence colour bullshit.

That being said, I think that a Gulch Code and set of individual Gulch values as a supplementary to that code should be drawn up. You're halfway there really with the code in the values sidebar, just needs to fleshed out a bit.

E.g. does voluntaryism mean helping neighbours or donating time as a group to a cause eventually, I'm for the first as a mandatory part of the community code, not at at all the latter without prior arrangement.

I think getting it off the ground without the right protections in place for all involved is going to be very hard, and there is no downside really aside from paperwork.

I conduct business in the U.S, have a few family there and Texas is an ideal location for me for a secondary location for a first Gulch stake, dependent of course on the owners accepting me.

My reasoning is as for many of my concerns, due to its size, personal freedoms compared to my own country and ability to stand up for itself in certain situations, if it came to it, it is an ideal U.S state.

I dislike the proximity to Mexico, but if the border wall is constructed in full this would be less of a concern.

Truthfully, I don't do well in the heat.

I also don't do well in the heat (it's an avg of 60F yearly here!), so would share A/C concerns and have already looked into a variety of interesting ways to do this efficiently at scale for multiple locations without relying on solar/wind.

Those power sources would be better saved for other purposes like fridges, computers, etc, instead using geothermal well heat transfer pumps, as there is less transfer loss for the intended purpose.

If the property purchased has an existing drilled exhausted well in Texas, this could provide an immense amount of thermal power for HVAC, water heating and general power usage of excess energy with a generator attached.

If not, depending on location a ground heat transfer solution can be done, either centrally (cheapest but most expensive initially), or to each individual housing site.

I know some can survive alone in the desert for years and years but I fail to see the point.) I hope some day there can be a Goat's Gulch in every state. But I think it's a balance of compromise and waiting for the opportunity. If we each wait for the perfect scenario we will never get anything started.

This is one reason why I would like to be active across one (my own when the site is big enough for my area of the world and attracts more quality users who will suit the concept that I posted in v/NewCountryProject) to eventually two to when I can retire in comfort, i.e. enough to travel between and income for both personal and community development.

Over private channels happy to discuss more personal details such as relative age, financials, specific skills, but after an NDA is signed, for all of our protections in any initial contacts.

I travel a lot for my own work, which can be a lonely lifestyle in itself at times as you know, however less duration these days, so can actually participate in projects and increasingly so going forward.

And if too many start too fast there will be too few of us dedicated to each Gulch.

Another reason why, I can be dedicated to my own, but can easily spend time and organise personal development as well as contribute to community development at 1 more Gulch in order to get a network going.

An international network of Gulches with these values will be almost a first of its kind, libertarian homesteading with both on site and digital community support.

While this is hypothetical and would be a very advanced timeline, do any of you have both the interest and opportunity for a fall move, say to Texas?

Interest, yes. Opportunity to come and meet and inspect places. most likely.

Move there and build a dwelling straight away, no, I'm too busy with work for at least a few more years to live there half a year or so each year, but can provide all kinds of other support, depending on requirements as far as amounts, time needed and already supplied goods/funds/skills.

Maybe if you want more answers from other users you should provide a sticky with current funding for projects, timelines, etc.

I don't want my neighbors to be the people who I begrudging join for a yearly potluck. I want them to be the best of my friends, business partners, and maybe if I'm very lucky I'll find a good woman along the way.

Couldn't agree more, but fuck luck having anything to do with, even if we are not involved in this Gulch, if we get along in person there are plenty of great girls out there interested in the same thing, but priorities. My god do I get more shit done single, no offense ladies, but one day would like to settle down with someone.

Gulch Travel Trip, hit up Eastern/ Select Northern Europe, Australia, NZ, etc, as my god sorry but U.S women disgust me.

E.g many Kiwi girls are still from 1st generation homesteads. Eastern Europe more so, but more vetting required.

Let me know your thoughts,

Goater

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[–] TeranNotTerran [S] 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

Hi Goater,

I'm back from my trip. I think a motorcycle is the ideal tool for exploring much of the US.

Could you give out a bit more info about the property or link to it if already posted? If people are going to put in any serious capital investments are you able to subdivide, so that people can own their own land parcels?

This land is 10 acres near Van Horn, Texas. I picked it up for $2,500 so there's no reason to subdivide.

Here's one of the earlier videos of the property and my trailer: https://youtu.be/1G8cPNTVDMk

I haven't thought much about putting together a code or creed of values. I tend to shy away from anything that could be construed as law one day. I generally try to act just on my own accord and not set the rules for others, acting as a neighbor. But, I'll definitely consider that. A more fleshed out version of the sidebar could be worthwhile. But if we do write values, I'd like them to be tradeoffs. I find purely positive values to be pretty much meaningless (everyone wants greatness, friendly neighbors, and freedom), but it's when you say you accept one thing over another that you make a real statement. Perhaps, freedom over safety, giving the benefit of the doubt, personal responsibility over enforcement. Something like that. Those were just off the top of my head, I'm sure we can do much better.

I think for communicating over private channels, at this point @coopzy and I could talk with you. Either over IRC, a WhatsApp group, even Slack. I'm comfortable signing an NDA depending on the terms, it sounds like it'd just be over your identity anyway which I can understand if you want to protect it. My email is sega01 at go-beyond.org if you want to send it over.

It sounds like you offer an incredible amount of resources for Goat's Gulch. I guess the difficulty is that I've phrased everything around not making this a Galt's Gulch like in Chile or anything where I am a central owner. There are a lot of advantages to perhaps forming an LLC, buying into land and what not, but I envision a neighborhood above all else. If you want to invest I imagine you could go down a few routes. The more philanthropic, buying land and having a park built, or similar. More on the business side, planting businesses in the nearby area, opening a hotel, an apartment complex, a campsite, etc. You could even go as far as buying a fair bit of the nearby parcels and sitting on them as an investment. Even if you wanted, vetting the people you sold to, as a form of person to person immigration vetting. Another approach might be setting up a homesteading fund. Something where you buy the property and a homesteader would pay... 10, 20% of its value and after living out there for five years would own the property. If they don't live out there for the whole time then you keep the improvements and such.

I made a more recent post as I've started looking at land options again. There are a lot of criterea to consider and I am trying to keep land budgets low. I want most people to be able to buy land and build without a mortgage, getting started for $10-40k possibly. I'd hate to see a bunch of goats come out and not really own their land -- having the bank own it for 30, 40 years.

First generation homesteaders in New Zealand? That would be a great place to find capable and respectful women. There are some great women in the US but they are very diluted, just as good men are over here.

Thank you again for writing. Pick a communication medium and we can talk privately if that's best for you.

-Teran

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[–] Goater 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago  (edited ago)

I'm out of coffee so this may be a bit of a ramble.

Hey Teran,

Glad you had a good trip. Motorcycles are awesome for exploring in general I find, really get to feel the land you're travelling through.

This land is 10 acres near Van Horn, Texas. I picked it up for $2,500 so there's no reason to subdivide.

Yeah true, at that size and pricing you are right, not much point, would suit a communal effort just fine. I was thinking for when it gets to plot sizing that large.

I go into real estate with the best of intentions, but also the best of protections. You'd be amazed at what people do when they fall into financial troubles, I'd just like to make sure that when it is worth something that you or any other stakeholder is protected.

I'm not personally concerned for my own investment into it currently, until the land size large enough to run at least 10 head of cattle per parcel (I like to keep to a one every 6 weeks or so schedule to allow for proper dry aging), I regard any contributions that I will make as more ideals funding, not investing.

I find purely positive values to be pretty much meaningless (everyone wants greatness, friendly neighbors, and freedom), but it's when you say you accept one thing over another that you make a real statement.

Yep, that was my line of thinking, situations can be complex and often would require a group decision, that broke none of the original legalities, to be made.

When I mention legalities, it is more in the sense that 99% of issues should be sorted internally, but that there is always that 1% that can ruin a project like this. Imagine legal fee's only a few years in, it would either kill or severely hamper the project, but wouldn't be possible if a document existed that met the law of the land, in a very basic form, by stopping anyone from having any ground in a court case, rendering it extremely stupid of them to take it to court.

There are a lot of advantages to perhaps forming an LLC, buying into land and what not, but I envision a neighborhood above all else.

I'm not certain of U.S corporate and property taxation law, so can't help out much currently there, but this point ties strongly into my above one. I don't think an LLC is necessary, and with land prices so cheap where you guys are looking, your suggestion to buy land surrounding isn't a bad one either, this can be addressed as property is narrowed down, but allows for much greater security and vetting.

Another approach might be setting up a homesteading fund. Something where you buy the property and a homesteader would pay... 10, 20% of its value and after living out there for five years would own the property.

I think is an ideal option considering the land prices. A 10 acre parcel for max $5k and an initial build of $25k, easily done with the skill sets available. What I'd be more concerned about is the ideal of setting aside certain land that is purely communal, in order to do this (at least in my country) legally requires subdivision.

It isn't so much a trust thing, just the same rationale as the possible 1% financial failure situation. Without any legal division, all land is regarded as communal if there is no provisions for housing sites over here.

$30k over 5 years is around $510 per month after CPI. The majority of the value comes from any improvements made, so discourages people from abandonment. Pretty good model for it. I agree with you on the funding, I think a rule that no more than 25% or so can come from bank funding, to avoid any chance of repossession.

If plot-holders have first option on any plots for sale, then the bank is unlikely to anyway, unless they see some huge advantage in it, which if so would greatly increase the surrounding plots value anyway, in most situations.

Personally, I don't think anyone should be central owners, this is what a subdivision done correctly should allow when beyond 10 acres. A person may own a majority of parcels, or a majority land holding, but have no further voting rights when it comes to communally designated areas (the sections for roads, barns, larger scale agriculture, forge, wood mill, etc).

Also, that a person owning the majority of parcels must be doing so for a reason (investment) and as such should be required to pay some strata for each parcel owned to the community. This in turn allows communal development, which benefits the majority holder and other holders pretty much equally.

There would have to be fair sale provisions (i.e the majority holder can't refuse a fair bid if the community agrees on it) and other such shit, but that's further down the line.

As far as the NDA, until we meet up it's really just a standard one on name, age, job, skill set, financial ability with a minor penalty for breaking (court costs, damages + 20%). I don't really think it's necessary with you guys, but should be a standard Gulch practice in my mind as a first layer of vetting.

With most of what I do it is about being able to trust long term, people change but legal documents don't, too often have I seen things like this fail due to insufficient planning and protections a few years down the track. Our ability to sleep and work rough does help with any difficulties faced, but won't provide for any court case or dispute with local governance.

My main concern is that what is being proposed is similar to many Maori communities, and most of them are a shit-show due to no actual legal framework, just communal decisions. It leads to all kinds of disputes (and this is family!) from human nature running its course. Favoring certain groups due to internal politics, infrastructure decay, poor decisions based off emotion.

All this I'd like Gulch's to avoid.

Imagine the legal framework as the constitution, a very basic set of rules to be referred back, but something that should only be needed in a proper functioning Gulch as a last resort.

I'll continue posting later when I've read through your recent submission. Personally, I think Slack is an ideal medium as it allows for much greater division of the separate components required, but am open to any of the options.

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[–] TeranNotTerran [S] 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

This is great, thank you. I'm actually going on a trip tomorrow and will be quite busy for about a week. I don't think I'll be able to get back to you until after.

@coopzy, what do you think of Goater's comment?