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[–] soggywaffles ago 

I see what you mean with the title Father, but I still disagree with them having such a position. I guess the biggest thing we see a difference in is I see the church as a group of equal people all participating in worship and learning. Of course you'll have leaders and elders, but nothing like the laity and clergy divide, where one group is perceived as closer to God.

One thing about that link you sent about the fathers is all quotes regarding priests are centuries after Christ, many around Constantine's era.

I had asked a few Catholics about the Saint thing and have never gotten a straight answer. Thanks! Is that something you guys do all the time or just occasionally? Sounds fine as long as you still have a personal relationship with God.

I grew up with the holidays too but I think they're something we need to change. The Easter(Ishtar) bunny, Santa, tree, etc. are things we end up making the focal point of the holidays. Sucks because I love Christmas trees.

Read this in regards to men forgiving sins: https://carm.org/john2023-priests-forgive-sins .

"Calvin was ethnically jewish" so was Jesus. The original Christians mostly met in houses. The planters started churches and left them to grow and learn. There are many different Christian branches, but the fact that there's only one Catholic church doesn't mean it's right about everything. Does having one utility company in town make it a good utility company?

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[–] tomii [S] ago  (edited ago)

Thanks for the reply. I personally barely never ask for saints intercession. Neither has anyone at my church. I ask for intercession from Mary, eg... "Mary, pray for me/pray for us". We do not worship anyone other than God and Jesus Christ. We do not ask for anything other than prayer. It is the same as if I asked you to pray for me... But saints and Mary are already in heaven.

The church fahter quotes I gave were from just over 100 years after the death of Mary... Some being a little later. Christianity was brand new at this point, and they clearly prayed for intercession to saints, angels, and Mary herself. Also, these are all "pre-Nicean" fathers. The era of Constantine is in no way sinister or bad. That is just what some protestants want to believe.

I would challange you to read the church fathers from the "apostolic fathers" right through. You can get the whole thing online for free or on kindle for a few bucks.

In regards to your link I have summed up the argument as follows: "The bible says Jesus gave the apostles power to forgive sins. However, nothing says this is passed down."

I would argue: "Why on earth would Jesus give his disciples the power to forgive sins, and let it die with them?" This is also not at all consistant with other gifts that were given to disciples, like delivering people from demons.

Furthermore, the church fathers believed in apostolic succession. If the original Christians believed it; it is the way it is.

Protestants believe priests have the power to forgive sins by baptism; why not by confession? Jesus bestowed the sacramentals on priests.

When the jews killed Christ; they became the enemies of God. Therefore they have been at the forefront of the attack of the Church.

In regards to the unity of the church; Christs body is not divided. There is one church that Christ founded, making the one undivided body of Christ. Both Orthodox Christians and Catholics agree on this; they just disagree on who the correct Church is.

Lastly, God is all about authority and heirarchy. It is Satan who is rebelling from that. There is a heirarchy in heaven, there is a heirarchy in the Church. This is the way God made it. A sure sign of Satan is "revolutionaries" who try to overturn authority and make everyone "equal". Protestants being just one instance of this satanic rebellious spirit... (I'm not saying protestants are bad, but they have been decieved. The reformation was Satanic.)

The early Christians met in the catacombs and houses, correct. However, as soon as it became possible to do so they built Churches and made them as beautiful as possible. They even did basic artwork on the catacomb walls.