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[–] Fuckmesilly 0 points 6 points (+6|-0) ago 

Transgender individuals have high suicide rates. Even this progressive article admits it, though it tries to disprove the link to mental illness.

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[–] cpoakes 2 points 5 points (+7|-2) ago 

I have a different spin. Many with gender dysphoria are depressed and suicidal without therapy and support. Unfortunately, many remain depressed and unhappy after gender reassignment surgery. The suicide rate post-surgery is still high. The surgery is at best a simulation and often an unsatisfactory result. People should be counseled and supported to find a way to live in their original skins. If then they want body mods, I support them - just not on the public health dime. A facelift, new tits (trans or cis), a pseudo-vagina - the plastic surgery is just a deception to get the world to see as younger, more desirable, or another gender.

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[–] carasci 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

While I don't have a specific study to point to, my understanding was that post-transition suicide rates are driven largely by social stigma/discrimination rather than continuing dysphoria - the post-transition pattern looks more like what used to be the norm for gay/bi/etc. individuals a number of decades ago. It's hard to overstate the psychological toll of going through life knowing that a decent chunk of the world considers you an abomination on religious, social or other similar grounds, especially given that post-transition individuals are more likely to lack traditional social supports such as family. While I expect there's some bias in study selection, this (from page 229 on) suggests relatively high success rates as far as SRS/GRS itself is concerned.

In terms of treatment, I would contrast the methods and outcomes for SRS/GRS with how other forms of body dysmorphia (dysmorphia, not dysphoria) are approached. In BDD, cosmetic surgery tends to cause only a shift in fixation ("fix" one thing and they just find something else), which suggests the need for a focus on psychological/psychiatric treatment - trying to cure it using cosmetic therapy is about as effective as trying to cure anorexia with liposuction. Conversely, psychological/psychiatric therapies targeted at addressing gender dysphoria etc. have met with about as much sense as attempts to "cure" homosexuality. Nonetheless, gender dysphoria treatments using biological modifications (along with hormone therapy, lifestyle transition etc.) have met with considerable success (particularly compared to "none"), and while patients aren't always satisfied with the results their reactions still follow a very different pattern.

Out of curiosity, would you make a similar argument against publicly funded cosmetic surgery for someone who had, for example, extensive facial scarring due to a fire or chemical incident? (i.e. surgery beyond what was purely necessary for airway reconstruction, unimpeded vision etc.)

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[–] cpoakes 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

In four specific individuals I know/have known, the surgery scars, medication requirements, and physiological differences in simulated genitalia require either coming out as trans to intimate partners or avoiding intimacy altogether. There is never a full gender transition; the illusion is shattered with intimacy. This is profoundly disappointing to many, and a significant factor in suicide. The acceptance and adjustment about who you are is ultimately inside your head.

As far as publicly funded surgery goes, I make a distinction between functional restoration and alteration.

In a parallel example, if you want a face lift - do what makes you happy, it won't affect our friendship. But if you start complaining how people still treat you as old, I will point out that you are old and need to accept that. And if you keep it up, I will tell you to STFU and see a therapist to deal with your aging issues. Expecting a face lift to solve those issues would be naive and ill-informed.

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[–] m4tthew 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

The surgery is at best a simulation and often an unsatisfactory result.

That's always been my takeaway. Granted I have no first hand knowledge of the subject but as it stands medically we just don't have the ability to swap sexes. You can maybe try and force superficial physiological qualities, and even hormonal. But it still stands that there is not real way to 'fix' gender dysmorphia either through the body or mind.

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[–] VictorSteinerDavion 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago 

mental illness

Does it cause harm to the individual or those around them.
If no, it's not an illness, but a difference in neural expression.

If it does cause harm to the individual, any contextually reasonable remedy should be pursued that brings a cessation of harm.
If it causes harm to others, the individual should be separated from those it harms at a minimum for safe effect.
Once that has been done, then look into a 'cure' or treatment.

The aspects that present as depression might be better explained as a straight forward chemical issue that should be addressed with analysis and tailoring of 'medicines' that balance or fulfill any detected deficiency.
Once 'ideal' neurochemistry is achieved, then add in counseling, therapy etc, acknowledging from the beginning that surgery is an option, but it needs to be stated that it is a last resort option.
Given the risk and other complications of any surgery it should be considered the last step of a long, considered process, but never restricted or barred from the list of solutions.
As it stands, this process is the current method of treatment.

I suspect the reasons people regret it after the fact is the issue of neurochemistry is never fully addressed, so the superficial changes made to the flesh do nothing to help the person be who they are inside their head. When both match happiness is achieved, when one is ignored the other just makes it worse.
Sure we can jack people up with chemical cocktails, but those cocktails are based on assumptions, because we still don't really know how the brain works in totality.

Ultimately, if an individual decides for themselves they wish to do a thing to themselves, and it causes no harm to others, then that individual should have right to act as they please.
Even if it ultimately causes their death.

Yes it might make the family feel bad, upset them etc, but that is not the responsibility of the person getting the procedure, how you feel is your responsibility alone.
The argument that it 'hurts the feeling of others' is to assume that other peoples feelings take supremacy over the individuals right to self determination.

Anyone contemplating suicide should seek therapy and counseling, but that should not be the final and only solution to a complex issue.
When medical science makes gender reassignment as easy as getting a haircut, this entire discussion will be moot as people will transition back and forth for fun.
This entire discussion stops being relevant when the harm from the surgery itself is separated from the issues of mental heath.

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[–] Gake_The_Cake 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago 

Given the risk and other complications of any surgery it should be considered the last step of a long, considered process, but never restricted or barred from the list of solutions.

It is medical malpractice to remove a healthy organ. Surgery, especially the removal of organs and limbs, presents a high rate of infection. It is very dangerous.

Ultimately, if an individual decides for themselves they wish to do a thing to themselves, and it causes no harm to others, then that individual should have right to act as they please. Even if it ultimately causes their death.

By this logic we should allow all people with suicidal thoughts to die- we should shut down suicide prevention entirely. After all, these are their wishes.

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[–] VictorSteinerDavion 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

we should shut down suicide prevention entirely. After all, these are their wishes

Leaping to extremes to refute a position is not helpful to discussion.
If all other options are exhausted, I have no objections to people killing themselves.
This is not to make a case for removing any systems of prevention, but those systems of prevention should also not cause harm by prohibiting other options.

It is medical malpractice to remove a healthy organ.

Pay close attention to the beginning of my sentence. I also consider it medical malpractice to force treatment on a person, when that treatment is only to prolong life ignoring any pain and suffering.

Overall the position I hold is: When a person is fully cognizant of the situation and available options, who am I to dictate their actions?
I cannot in good conscience force actions on a person against their will, if they have made choices in full awareness of the consequences and no harm will come to others as a result.

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[–] scorinth 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago  (edited ago)

it is a mental illness and should be treated as such.

I will concede that gender dysphoria seems to be caused by something in the brain and could therefore be reasonably called a mental illness. However, when you're dealing with patients who are in distress because of their mental illness, it is oftentimes counterproductive to oppose them and insist that they "accept reality." Sometimes one treatment is best, sometimes another. So, when you're talking about mental illness - hell, any illness, really - the big question is, "Which of the treatments available to us is the best one to improve the patient's well-being?"

So, transitioning sucks. It's stressful on the patient, and it's a little weird for everybody around them, but what better treatment is out there? My best friend is transgender, and when I had this conversation with him, he actually agreed that he'd rather be able to take a pill that fixes the dysphoria than have to go through hormone treatment for the rest of his life and at least three different surgeries to make everything "right."

The truth is, therapy doesn't do much or any good at treating the dysphoria itself, even though it does have a benefit in that it can help reduce depression and suicide. The closest thing we have to a solution at this point in time is to allow the person in question to transition and live as the gender they feel is appropriate.

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[–] DietCokehead1 2 points 1 points (+3|-2) ago 

The first thing you need to know is: it's gender dysphoria, not gender dismorphia. At least learn the actual name of the condition before you take any harsh stance, whether it be for or against, a particular treatment. There is no such thing as gender dismorphia.

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[–] mr_skeltal [S] 0 points 3 points (+3|-0) ago 

My mistake, I always get the word mixed up. I hope that doesn't preclude me from having an opinion. Do you have any position on this yourself?

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[–] DietCokehead1 0 points 4 points (+4|-0) ago  (edited ago)

I don't think it precludes you at all. I just had to point that out. I can honestly see both sides of the argument. I don't really have a side.

But I'd be interested to know if, in your opinion, changing/altering other (non-genital) body parts with the assistance of the medical world would also be considered pandering to someone who is mentally-ill. Is a doctor who gives breast-augmentation surgery pandering to a patient's mental illness? Is a dermatoligist who removes peoples' moles pandering to a patient's mental illness? Or is it just limited the uroligists and cosmetic surgeons who perform genital reassignment procedures, specifically?

[–] [deleted] 5 points 1 points (+6|-5) ago 

[Deleted]

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[–] mr_skeltal [S] 0 points 4 points (+4|-0) ago 

Ha I'm not sure about the Jewish media part, I'm living in Australia and non-Jewish (but big time neo-con) Rupert Murdoch owns most of the media here. Also it's the new media (Gawker, Vice, etc.) that seem to be most rabidly pushing the feminist agenda, more so than the American mainstream media even. I think you're pretty much on the ball with the rest of your comment though.

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[–] umpaloompa 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

Hey, you seem to have broken rule 1 of the comment rules. I will let this slide as some other I've found in the last two threads but please, only comment if you want to refute an argument of OP.

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[–] 0ed 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

I am always of the opinion that giving people more choices is a good thing.

Presumably, people are rational and will choose whatever they think is going to be the best for themselves.

Of course, in your case, your argument is that this might not be the case - people might be stupid or even mentally unstable, and choose choices which ultimately end up harming themselves and others.

I would say, to that, that there's nothing wrong with that. People make bad choices all the time. Smart and lucky people make good choices and prosper, stupid or unlucky people make bad choices and just disappear. That's how life works, and that's how we become better people as time moves on.

Let people make choices, even if you disagree with those choices. Time will choose a victor.

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[–] Siimo 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

Do you have any kind of source or have you researched this at all? If you had looked into it, what you would find is that the medical community has put quite a bit of time and effort into treating the condition of gender dysphoria. Hormonal treatment and reassignment surgery are not just the first thing that's gone to on a whim. It requires a diagnosis through therapy and if recommended is usually quite affective. One of the main drawbacks to it is how shitty society will treat trans people, both post and pre transition, which is part of the reason why the suicide rate is still higher than the general population (though it drops post transition).

Simply put, the medical community treats it that way because it's the best way we know of to treat it. You saying "I think it's foolhardy" doesn't change that.

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[–] mr_skeltal [S] 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago  (edited ago)

Yeah I've done my share of research considering my brother is transgender and my other brother is a medical scientist. I tend not to wade into subjects I know nothing about.

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[–] Siimo 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

Care to present any of the research that's lead you to those conclusions or challenge any of the research I presented?