[–] KingChem 0 points 15 points (+15|-0) ago 

The moral argument is an interesting thing, these diets are only made possible by modern farming techniques that destroy the habitats of untold numbers of plants and animals alike. If you actually cared you would subsistence farm your own food with low impact techniques. If you were to do that you would quickly find yourself dependent on animal protein.

[–] Simonsaysgoat [S] 1 points 2 points (+3|-1) ago 

Animal farms are detroying the rainforest as well so your argument isnt that strong. Considering I only get things from small farms where there is little impact, what would be less moral? I'd say not having to raise animals for slaughter is better.

[–] Eualos 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago 

I'm pretty sure the most moral thing is to kill yourself

[–] ilikeskittles 0 points 10 points (+10|-0) ago 

Most all things on the face of the earth eat other things. Why should humans be any different? Are you going to tell a Lion it can't eat a Gazelle and hand it a bowl full of Kale and tell it that's it's immoral to eat the Gazelle? Or are lower order animals exempt from this moralizing?

[–] AndrewBlazeIt 1 points 2 points (+3|-1) ago  (edited ago)

Or are lower order animals exempt from this moralizing?

Precisely. What reason do humans have for not eating meat besides a moral one? Which we wouldn't be able to even do if our meat-eating ancestors hadn't advanced agricultural technology to the point where that was an option.

This sort of thinking separates humans from animals. It's stupid and egotistical. Primates fall under Animalia, and no amount of vegan tears will change that.

[–] Simonsaysgoat [S] 1 points 4 points (+5|-1) ago 

we have created a ways to not have to kill for food and get complete nutrition.

I think being human means acting more according to morals and logic than to give into animalistic behaivoirs and instinct. Isnt it possible that we SHOULD move away from animals as food? Maybe this is the way we evolve to the next stage of evolution. Just saying its possible.

Also im not a vegan and you dont have to make it seem like I'm some soyboy for taking the time to consider how my actions and choices affect the world.

I'm just trying to work out the philosophical hang up

[–] TheGreatRoh 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

Not a vegetarian but devil's advocate here. Animals also rape each other frequently as natural behavior.

[–] Whitemail 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

Farm animals have an odd artificial existence. I mean, they wouldn't exist if the farm didn't exist.

[–] AlienEskimo 0 points 6 points (+6|-0) ago  (edited ago)

All living things have some level of self-awareness , even single cell organisms

Emotions come from hormonal cascades, which plants show similar processes

[–] Simonsaysgoat [S] 0 points 5 points (+5|-0) ago  (edited ago)

Very interesting. I'll have to read more about this.

[–] AlienEskimo 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago  (edited ago)

Plant hormones shape the plant, affecting seed growth, time of flowering, the sex of flowers, senescence of leaves, and fruits. They affect which tissues grow upward and which grow downward, leaf formation and stem growth, fruit development and ripening, plant longevity, and even plant death. Hormones are vital to plant growth, and, lacking them, plants would be mostly a mass of undifferentiated cells.


Anecdotal personal experience: cannabis plants who get light jazz and ladybugs produce stronger leaves, stems, and terpenes than those exposed to commercialized radio

[–] cyclops1771 0 points 5 points (+5|-0) ago 

Moral? No.

Do I do it? Yes.

Why? Because I am not a moral man. I am Epicurean in mindset usually, and I do not let morality interfere with my own happiness.

Pythagoras can bite my balls with his philosophy of do-goody good bullshit.

[–] Simonsaysgoat [S] 0 points 3 points (+3|-0) ago 

Hadnt thought of it like this but a world full of selfishness isnt preferable to me.

[–] DeliciousOnions 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

The problem is that selfish choices often get someone an advantage in life. Refusing to take them yourself won't stop others from happily taking that choice, and soon in the great race of humanity you're passed up by the folks who were willing to do what you weren't.

Just like how sociopaths are often distilled to the top of the business and political world.

[–] cyclops1771 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

I agree, but that's not really what Epicureanism is - it is not pure hedonism of the flesh.

It is more "happiness of the soul", through removal of things that cause you pain. I eat meat because it is healthy and a great source of protein (and it tastes good!), and I choose not to think of the morality of slaughtering animals for it, because that affronts me. Meat IS a staple diet, and it is happening and thinking about their deaths and the blood and gore would give me pain, therefore I don't think about it. Depriving myself of the result of an action that is already occurring benefits no one - not the animal, not myself, not the butcher, not the refrigeration company, not the packing plant, not the feedlot, not the rancher. It is a simple pleasure - easily obtained nutrients, and I do not feel pain.

As a younger lad, I followed a more Stoic/Epictetus philosophy, where I embraced pain and suffering as a virtue and a path to separation of mind and body (mind over body, in a lesser form), but as I aged, and pain became a larger part of my everyday life, I converted to a more Epicurean view. Things like using mattresses over sleeping on floor with a blanket and a pillow, drinking wine instead of water with dinner, watching the game on a Saturday instead of yardwork. These simple pleasures have reduced some of the pain, and I don't find them to be an overwhelming "selfishness" of purpose.

[–] jokersmild 0 points 5 points (+5|-0) ago 

It's the circle of life...

[–] somethingsaid 1 points -1 points (+0|-1) ago 

In philosophy, naturalism is the "idea or belief that only natural (as opposed to supernatural or spiritual) laws and forces operate in the world."[1] Adherents of naturalism (i.e., naturalists) assert that natural laws are the rules that govern the structure and behavior of the natural universe, that the changing universe at every stage is a product of these laws.[2] - wikipedia

Anyone believe that nature should dictate our actions?

[–] valk2 0 points 4 points (+4|-0) ago 

As a Texan I could care less about the morality of the situation. Do I need protein, yes, is it easily gotten from meat, yes. As far as taking a life I was taken to a cattle farm very early in life. I was shown the process the cow takes from birth to death. I was then taken to a slaughter house and eventually a butcher, a real one, not the super market bullshit. I won't ever forget that smell. However, it was necessary for me to understand that what I eat comes from something that was once alive. I respect the animals I consume and make sure that the beef, pork and chicken I purchase comes from places that respect them in the same way. I pay a huge premium at the meat counter for this and it pays off in taste. I don't buy prepackaged meat. Not everyone has this luxury but since I reside Texas it is a comfort I afford my family.

They say Pigs are very smart, but damn if you want to take my bacon.

Please don't use this as an excuse to give me a long ass list of reasons why you can eat plants and be fine. Not everyone can eat plants and digest them easily. Also I don't intend to justify any of this as you are some random person who I feel no need to justify anything to. Bringing up pets won't do you any favors either.

Sounds like you need to put down the soy if you are starting to get emotional about animals we domesticated and consume for substance.

[–] Simonsaysgoat [S] 0 points 4 points (+4|-0) ago 

I get it. I used to eat meat. I'm only here for discussion. I am just trying to get,more perspective because it is so black and white in my mind and I know it isnt that simple in life. I have a dog and I couldnt eat her, how can I raise and,kill and eat a cow? Or pig? Or sheep? I am trying to settle it in,my head and I cannot do it on my own.

[–] valk2 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

I wish you the best of luck then. I can't not eat meat, it's one of the few things my body can process still.

[–] Simonsaysgoat [S] 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

Thanks to everyone here! I have a lot more to consider than I previously thought! This has been a great discussion

[–] CobraStallone 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

Defining a fact of life as "immoral" because of your artificial modern standard of living? I disagree. Animal eats animal, it's violent and involves death and suffering, but such is life. Ever heard of Jainism? They have to watch where they step to avoid killing bugs, can't plow fields for fear of killing worms, are strict vegans, and gently brush off the air in front of them before walking, to avoid killing microorganisms.

Their bodies still kill bazillions of bacteria and viruses everyday they live though. So, you could take it to an extreme, and the only way to make sure you are not killing thousands of other living beings everyday is to commit suicide. I say they life of a pig is not worth mine, not even thousands of pigs, I'm sorry.

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