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[–] CapinBoredface 0 points 1 point (+1|-0) ago 

it's hard to imagine a community or society that does not depend upon religion or God in some form.

That's exactly what I said. I just don't think saying "you need jesus" is the answer. People need guidance. People need community. In the vast majority of cases, to the point that it seems to be the only realistic answer, people need religion.

Historically, societies have been shown to fail and collapse not long after the decline of religion in the given society

I agree, a society with zero access to religion stands no chance at surviving long term.

You need to get rid of the common notion of religion as a book of rules you have to live to.

I am so far past this. Its strange to me that after reading what I wrote you still think I need to be told this.

It is a complete and consistent world view, the rules are just byproducts of this viewpoint.

The rules are a product of the people who wrote them, the societies that needed them, and the desire by groups to better themselves and make a better world for their offspring. If societies need to attribute that will to be better to a deity thats fine. I don't.

If you do then more power to you. Make sure your children know what is right and wrong and if you tell them its right and wrong because god said so then hey, thats not any hair off my balls.

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[–] salttypa ago 

So you admit people need religion, yet you take issue with someone saying that people need Jesus? This seems somewhat contradictory imo.

I mean this is an issue that has been formulated many years ago and people still cannot provide a worthy answer other than religion. Essentially without God how can there be right and wrong? You either have to admit that there is a universal right and wrong, which leads to God, or you throw the whole thing away and deny the existence of any kind of good and evil, leading to nihilism.

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[–] CapinBoredface ago 

So you admit people need religion

I wasnt very clear. What I meant was that people need community and guidance. Religion is a great path for that in most cases.

you take issue with someone saying that people need Jesus?

yes, because I dont think Jesus is the only path to morality. Saying that someone needs jesus implies that jesus is the only answer. I take issue with that sentiment.

I mean this is an issue that has been formulated many years ago and people still cannot provide a worthy answer other than religion.

and neither can I once the collective grows beyond a certain point. Or outsiders to the group are introduced. The nature of human consciousness is also cursed with a desire for purpose and lacking any definitive answer to existential questions a deity is necessary for those individuals within the group who cannot cope with un-answered questions.

Essentially without God how can there be right and wrong?

Well that's just a stupid question and another thing I take a huge issue with in regards to religion. I do not belive in god and yet I still have a sense of right and wrong. You can make the claim that god taught my parents and they taught me therefore my morals are still a product of gods will. Sure.

Here is my thinking. A child does not need god to learn morals. a child needs a society with rules to learn morals. I believe with every fiber of my being that if the idea of God had never been invented a given civilization would still have a sense of right and wrong. It would probably be wrong to murder people for no reason. it would probably be wrong to steal. the very basics of human morality are not based in religion, religion is based in the very basics of human morality.

You either have to admit that there is a universal right and wrong

okay...

which leads to God,

no it does not. It leads to a human morality that some people attribute to a god or multiple gods. Can humans not have a sense of independent justice without a diety? Of course they can. If you raised a child without any concept of god and when they were old enough to have a sense of ownership over a thing, say a toy, and you one day walked up and smashed that toy in front of them would the child not feel bad? Maybe you would feel bad for making the child feel bad. Maybe you'd decide to make a rule where you don't smash other peoples stuff. Or maybe that child will grow up and make the rule themselves. You do not need a god to tell you that a thing is good or bad.

or you throw the whole thing away and deny the existence of any kind of good and evil,

This is a false dichotomy youve presented me. God or Nihilism are not the only options and this is why I take issue with statements like "you need jesus."

you might need jesus, personally. And thats fine. Other people can find purpose and morals in their own spirit and do not need a prophet to show them a path. If you need that guidance thats fine, I applaud you for finding a road that will most likely benefit you, your family, and your community instead of just falling into despair and nihilism.

But please do not tell your children or other people who ask that Nihilism or Jesus are their only options.

I am not a nihilist and I don't believe in god. I believe in the nature of people to work together and understand the needs of their peers.