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[–]ponchoman2750 points
1 point
1 point
(+1|-0)
ago
(edited ago)
I'm mainly going to argue about Czechia but some of this stuff applies to the rest. Czechia has been a core member of the Holy Roman Empire, at times even being the power center. We were then part of the Austrian and later Austro-Hungarian empire. Our interwar republic was heavily influenced by the French republic. We are distinctly central European but since Austria and Germany are considered western then we are too, never forget Prague is located more to the west than Vienna. We are central European but that is part of the western world same as northern Europe is also part of the west. Unfortunately we aligned with the USSR from 1948 to 1989 and we are still behind due to that but if you look at the overall history that was an anomaly and we have spent the past 1000 years looking westward. All the core aspects of western civilization are present here. Democracy, freedom of speech, secularism, human rights, pluralism, Judeo-Christian traditions, rule of law stemming from Roman law, freedom of conscience, belief in science and progress and all the other things typical for the modern west. In some things we may be behind, but in some things we out west the west or so to speak. Since I live here I can without a doubt say I know what I'm talking about. If you don't mind me asking where are you from? Edit: I can see you are Polish. Sorry man but Poland is still very western, perhaps less than Czechia I will admit that but you are still firmly part of the modern western world, even if you are the more religious and conservative part of it.
Western values are the best values in the history of humanity, nothing comes even close. With the exception of multiculturalism though...
I actually meant it in a different way. Since the West has serious problems right now with virtue signalling as well as a rogue media which is trying to support the globalists.
I don't want to have any of this. But yes, Czechia is indeed much more western then other Central European countries. Also a slight correction, Czechoslovakia was rather supportive of the USSR in the 1930s already, but that might have been because of some minor conflicts with Poland.
In the end, I don't share your view of the Western world. They were once the perfect examples, but as we can see now they are falling and failing at keeping themselves together. Cultural Marxism is on the rise in the west. Might be also because Communists infiltrated it by using Capitalism. I consider the Vise-grad group as firmly Central European, since the geographical centre of europe also lies somewhere in that area. We were able to free ourselves from the Russians, we can rule ourselves.
The west does have some problems definitely, but if you put it in perspective it's problems are some of the least serious in the world. The reliability of some mass media has gone down in recent years but the west is still overwhelmingly the best place for press freedom. Even globalist shitshows like the CNN which I wouldn't watch if you paid me are still better than Chinese state run media for example. The west also has the strongest tradition of small independent alternative media whereas those things are cracked down hard in the rest of the world. My point is the freedom of press in the west is still the strongest in the world [1].
We are the most western but honestly when I see cities like Budapest or Krakow I don't see some Eastern oriental despotism but firmly western cities. We are more western, but not by that large a margin. Our cultural intellectual class was very left leaning during that time but overall the political class was firmly western oriented or we spent our energy on alliances France and the UK along with Yugoslavia and Romania in the south and east for strategic reasons. But there were still some pan-slavist oriented towards Russia. But we were still very western oriented as a whole.
I agree that there is some decline in the west but a whole modern western civilization is still far superior all other cultures and civilizations. Even in it's current decadent state. I firmly agree that we are central European and I fully support enhancing our V4 alliance as a regional block that helps us develop and gives us more bargaining power within the EU. But I simply see central Europe as part of the west. I gave the example with northern Europe. The Scandinavian countries all have their distinct identity that is a bit different to what is normal in rest of Europe but they are still firmly western. Western civilization is comprised of many areas: Scandinavia, Benelux, the Romance countries, central Europe, the white commonwealth countries and many many more. All of these areas are distinct but all form the west.
We were able to free ourselves from the Russians because they had their own problems and were collapsing, they didn't muster the energy to send tanks in 89 like they did in 68. Currently we aren't strong enough to defend ourselves and latching on the the armies of the USA, France, Germany benefits us, at least for the moment. We have to try hard not to be puppets, that is for sure but we need that defense. Personally I'm not that worried about the Russians as I see them coming this far west again quite unlikely, at least for the next few decades but I would be shitting my pants if I lived in the Baltics. Same goes for the EU. Currently I believe it benefits us. Most infrastructure here is built and maintained with EU money, we get some fairly enlightened laws and regulations that we aren't capable of creating for ourselves, it helps trade etc. Sure you have stupid things like the recent gun control laws or the quota system which we ignored anyway. But overall we still benefit massively. Countries like Britain can handle being outside the EU, even if I believe they will be worse off. In our current economical and political state we couldn't handle it, which is pretty sad considering it's been like 28 years since our respective revolutions.
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[–] ponchoman275 0 points 1 point 1 point (+1|-0) ago (edited ago)
I'm mainly going to argue about Czechia but some of this stuff applies to the rest. Czechia has been a core member of the Holy Roman Empire, at times even being the power center. We were then part of the Austrian and later Austro-Hungarian empire. Our interwar republic was heavily influenced by the French republic. We are distinctly central European but since Austria and Germany are considered western then we are too, never forget Prague is located more to the west than Vienna. We are central European but that is part of the western world same as northern Europe is also part of the west. Unfortunately we aligned with the USSR from 1948 to 1989 and we are still behind due to that but if you look at the overall history that was an anomaly and we have spent the past 1000 years looking westward. All the core aspects of western civilization are present here. Democracy, freedom of speech, secularism, human rights, pluralism, Judeo-Christian traditions, rule of law stemming from Roman law, freedom of conscience, belief in science and progress and all the other things typical for the modern west. In some things we may be behind, but in some things we out west the west or so to speak. Since I live here I can without a doubt say I know what I'm talking about.
If you don't mind me asking where are you from?Edit: I can see you are Polish. Sorry man but Poland is still very western, perhaps less than Czechia I will admit that but you are still firmly part of the modern western world, even if you are the more religious and conservative part of it.Western values are the best values in the history of humanity, nothing comes even close. With the exception of multiculturalism though...
[–] TherealScrable ago
I actually meant it in a different way. Since the West has serious problems right now with virtue signalling as well as a rogue media which is trying to support the globalists.
I don't want to have any of this. But yes, Czechia is indeed much more western then other Central European countries. Also a slight correction, Czechoslovakia was rather supportive of the USSR in the 1930s already, but that might have been because of some minor conflicts with Poland.
In the end, I don't share your view of the Western world. They were once the perfect examples, but as we can see now they are falling and failing at keeping themselves together. Cultural Marxism is on the rise in the west. Might be also because Communists infiltrated it by using Capitalism. I consider the Vise-grad group as firmly Central European, since the geographical centre of europe also lies somewhere in that area. We were able to free ourselves from the Russians, we can rule ourselves.
[–] ponchoman275 ago
The west does have some problems definitely, but if you put it in perspective it's problems are some of the least serious in the world. The reliability of some mass media has gone down in recent years but the west is still overwhelmingly the best place for press freedom. Even globalist shitshows like the CNN which I wouldn't watch if you paid me are still better than Chinese state run media for example. The west also has the strongest tradition of small independent alternative media whereas those things are cracked down hard in the rest of the world. My point is the freedom of press in the west is still the strongest in the world [1].
We are the most western but honestly when I see cities like Budapest or Krakow I don't see some Eastern oriental despotism but firmly western cities. We are more western, but not by that large a margin. Our cultural intellectual class was very left leaning during that time but overall the political class was firmly western oriented or we spent our energy on alliances France and the UK along with Yugoslavia and Romania in the south and east for strategic reasons. But there were still some pan-slavist oriented towards Russia. But we were still very western oriented as a whole.
I agree that there is some decline in the west but a whole modern western civilization is still far superior all other cultures and civilizations. Even in it's current decadent state. I firmly agree that we are central European and I fully support enhancing our V4 alliance as a regional block that helps us develop and gives us more bargaining power within the EU. But I simply see central Europe as part of the west. I gave the example with northern Europe. The Scandinavian countries all have their distinct identity that is a bit different to what is normal in rest of Europe but they are still firmly western. Western civilization is comprised of many areas: Scandinavia, Benelux, the Romance countries, central Europe, the white commonwealth countries and many many more. All of these areas are distinct but all form the west.
We were able to free ourselves from the Russians because they had their own problems and were collapsing, they didn't muster the energy to send tanks in 89 like they did in 68. Currently we aren't strong enough to defend ourselves and latching on the the armies of the USA, France, Germany benefits us, at least for the moment. We have to try hard not to be puppets, that is for sure but we need that defense. Personally I'm not that worried about the Russians as I see them coming this far west again quite unlikely, at least for the next few decades but I would be shitting my pants if I lived in the Baltics. Same goes for the EU. Currently I believe it benefits us. Most infrastructure here is built and maintained with EU money, we get some fairly enlightened laws and regulations that we aren't capable of creating for ourselves, it helps trade etc. Sure you have stupid things like the recent gun control laws or the quota system which we ignored anyway. But overall we still benefit massively. Countries like Britain can handle being outside the EU, even if I believe they will be worse off. In our current economical and political state we couldn't handle it, which is pretty sad considering it's been like 28 years since our respective revolutions.