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[–] jeegte12 2 points 17 points (+19|-2) ago 

As a Texan, the results of immigration are a daily part of life for me. I can't imagine any other way. i also wouldn't want to; it's done worlds of good for millions of people, including myself. this also means that i can't comprehend immigrant culture on the other side of the world. it seems a hell of a lot more unpopular over there than it is over here. why is that?

[–] [deleted] 0 points 17 points (+17|-0) ago  (edited ago)

[Deleted]

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[–] onegaminus 1 points 3 points (+4|-1) ago 

Muslims immigrants to Europe literally adhere to a religion that is political, expansive and discriminatory - not only to women, but certainly to non-Muslims who, according to the Quran, are lesser people.

This reeks of bias in my opinion.

Maybe it's because I'm American and so, to fit into America, you have to be someone who accepts that no one is better than the other since everyone is different, but Islam really isn't the kind of thing that has to be political, expansive and discriminatory. I've never been instructed to act in this way as a Muslim. It comes across as incredibly discriminatory to paint all Muslims as discriminatory in the first place.

Also, this stuff about women being discriminatory towards women, from what I've seen and experienced as a Muslim, is complete crap. Women are not a lesser class at the mosque or in their daily lives. Frankly, I have seen Muslim girls smile more often and be way more positive around other people than gals who aren't Muslim. I have been way more aware of my etiquette around Muslim girls than other women, because Muslim girls seem to take being respected way more seriously, usually as a result of their choice to adhere to an Islamic dress code and code of conduct. One of humility and modesty (this is also one that Muslim men are supposed to adhere to).

Also the idea that the Qur'an classifies anyone as "lesser people" is bullshit. This presupposes that Allah does not judge each soul according to its deeds, and that you as a person have no right to attempt to judge another person because you don't know what is in their heart. To say that Islam condones looking at other people as lesser is a direct contradiction of this.

I think you're using the actions of the ignorant to make statements on what the Qur'an does or doesn't say, which, along with hadith, is the only viable source in what Islam says. Be careful with this distinction.

I can tell you that I would not be a Muslim if I ever thought the book I follow encouraged me to hate other people for not being who I am. I have seen plenty of Muslims that do this to others, and I have to say I think they're much worse than my friends who are Christian, Atheist, Hindi, etc. that choose not to do this.

I guess the only way Islam says they're "better" is because Islam wants those who follow it to carry the light of the faith the best they can, because those who believe in it think it's the best for themselves and can be for other people. But trying to be better for yourself is, I think, a wholly different and healthier thing than trying to be better than others for your own ego.

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[–] explorevoat [S] 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

This was an excellent post. Thank for sharing so much information clearly and concisely.

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[–] distortedlines 1 points -1 points (+0|-1) ago 

So what, in your opinion, should be done with war refugees? I'm Syrian(never lived there though), and I understand that this can be a touchy subject, but I've always been conflicted on this issue.

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[–] xiaoche 0 points 10 points (+10|-0) ago 

One big issue of difference between the US and Europe (or at least parts of Europe) is that European countries have a more generous welfare system. A lot of people are therefore afraid that there will be loads of immigrants who come just to get "free money". Since such systems are based on a system where everyone contributes in order for it to work, this is bound to create contention.

This is combined with a relatively inflexible job market. For example, in my country (Sweden) the salary system is based mainly on collective bargaining, which means that it in most cases are hard for a company e.g. to differentiate salaries to a significant degree (which in turn means that there are few incentives to hire immigrants since it costs equally much to hire a native Swedish speaking Swede). This creates lock-out effects for immigrants which further strengthens the image that immigrants are here just to recieve money from the system and not to contribute (which must truly suck for those who really would love to work and contribute if they could just get a foot into the labour market).

Add to this a generally bad economy where a lot of people are afraid of loosing their low-skilled jobs (and are afraid that they will have to compete for jobs with low-skilled immigrants), a bad housing situation, etc., and you will have a situation where right wing parties prosper.

As a side note, it is quite common to hear talk of "racist parties" when discussing parties that adress the concerns given above. This further inflames the debate and makes it hard to talk about. Proponents of immigration will say that those who oppose it are racists and xenophobes, while those against it will feel that they are silenced by the rich politically correct classes who neither lives in immigration heavy areas nor compete for jobs with them.

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[–] 1F4A9 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago  (edited ago)

A lot of people are therefore afraid that there will be loads of immigrants who come just to get "free money".

You make it sound like they have an unfounded fear of something that hasn't happened. I'm sure most immigrants don't come with the intention to get on welfare and use other social services they don't/didn't contribute to, but fact is that they disproportionally do end up in that situation. At the same time the natives have to deal with less public/social services and more taxes. This is what bothers the people. They have to pay for a group of other people that on top of that comes with an undesirable cultural influence.

which further strengthens the image that immigrants are here just to recieve money from the system and not to contribute

Again you're implying that it's just view people have, but the data supports this view. Where it's legal to collect statistics about this, and the political climate allows their analyses and publication, they show that non-Western immigrants on average take up more than they contribute. The welfare and other social services they receive costs more than the tax income and other contributions they make (premiums for collective insurances for example). Of course this doesn't include all positive effects, like money others generate from their presence, but it also doesn't include all negative ones, like the economic fallout of social unrest and higher crime rates.

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[–] explorevoat [S] 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago  (edited ago)

I appreciate this analysis.

It seems the answer is to stop calling people with real concerns "racists" or "xenophobes" as this is an attack meant to de-legitimatize the concerns of others. Really it is saying people with concerns about immigration are less than human.

That is scorched earth tactics.

The answer is an open dialogue where people with all opinions can discuss their concerns without being de-humanized by rich people who have the luxury to hold their nose up and act like they are better human beings.

People need to stop being afraid of these labels. A strategy might be to organize for a huge wealth tax that would prevent anyone from having more than a total of 500.000 in total assets. Then say it is either this or we discuss immigration and you keep your name calling to yourself.

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[–] TexasComments 0 points 3 points (+3|-0) ago 

Illegal immigration has not has a positive effect unless you consider cheap manual labor and yard services exceptionally positive as to offset crime and drug trafficking.

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[–] jeegte12 2 points 1 points (+3|-2) ago 

you're fucking kidding yourself if you think strict immigration has a significant affect on drug trafficking.

immigrants don't commit crime. poor people do. the only reason there are more poor people thanks to immigration is because there are simply more people.

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[–] explorevoat [S] 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago 

Texas is a lot different than Norway, France, Austria or the Netherlands. Its not comparable. The United States is an immigrant nation - Europe is not.

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[–] jeegte12 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago 

i'm sorry i didn't imply that i wasn't interested in an empty, meaningless response. when i asked, "why is that," i meant why don't they want immigration over there? why is it bad?

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[–] Ajaxofbarbaria 0 points 15 points (+15|-0) ago 

I, too, would like to know why they allow this.

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[–] IreliaOfIonia 0 points 13 points (+13|-0) ago  (edited ago)

The people who support immigration usually live in the richest neighborhoods (experienced this in the Eastern block, not in UK) and will actively try to separate themselves from minorities as much as possible. (Talk about discrimination...) They don't let their kids go to the same school the immigrants or minorities go to. Zero interaction with each other, yet these wanna be sociologists/humanitarians still advocate for immigration because it is the "right thing to do". It is just as easy to love people you don't know, as it is to hate those. I must assume that white guilt contributes to this phenomenon.

It seems though as if most countries "had enough" of the immigrants. The EU called for a quota that would make sure the poorer ex-soviet countries also had to take their "share". This would put a limitation on the exodus to Western European countries and increase it where no one really wants to go. Obviously the poorer countries oppose this because they see how it worked out in the West. Then you have Western countries call out the Eastern ones (and the UK) on their "racism", but in the end it is actually them who want to suddenly limit immigration into their countries, quite the hypocrisy if you ask me. They want less and the politically correct way to say that is "they want more" (in the Eastern bloc).

I can't fathom how Japan gets away with their xenophobia while the EU is called racist. I don't have to like Japan's policy on this, but I damn sure respect it.

Edit: This is really just my perception of the issue, don't claim to have much scientific value, so don't accept these as facts.

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[–] explorevoat [S] 0 points 8 points (+8|-0) ago  (edited ago)

I have also wondered if it is a class issue. A way for the rich to rub the noses of the middle class in their powerlessness. Still it is not enough of an explanation to account for the fact that all media outlets hold the line on more immigration and all governments that actually get into power do also.

There is big power behind doing this to Europe. (and the USA).

Also I never "got" white guilt after I got over the negative feelings of being told I was a monster by government institutions. They try real hard to make white people feel guilty in public schools then reinforce it in the papers and tele when you are out.

There are tons of cultures that have done worse things than white people historically, not to mention you are not responsible for the actions of some distant ancestor hundreds of years ago.

White people should be proud about being a major force in raising living standards through modernization. Allowing 7 billion people to live on the planet instead of just a couple hundred million due to mainly western technologies.

Its time for "white guilt" to die. Maybe that is why the papers and media are getting ever more shrill about it?

Don't fear the racist label - tour the world and you will find almost every country is full of people dramatically more racist than any white people I ever met, and it is discussed and accepted as truth openly - go to China, India, Japan, South Korea, Israel, you will find racism, racism, racism.

White people are being held to an absurd standard. Qui Bono? Why is such an enormous effort being expended to do this? Who is the beneficiary?

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[–] arathans 0 points 3 points (+3|-0) ago 

living in Austria i can confirm this. my sister in law lives in the most expensive area just outside of town which oddly enough has no auslanders living anywhere near them (seems the local community center can control who can move into the area to a certain degree) while i live in the city and are surrounded by them. its funny cause shes all for taking as many immigrants as possible yet she and her family never have to deal with them.

[–] [deleted] 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago 

[Deleted]

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[–] Syndicake 1 points 1 points (+2|-1) ago 

Fair access to employment is a human rights issue also. The highest level universities should not discriminate against the poor or minorities but unfortunately little action has been taken legally to prevent it so far. Even though the human rights act guarantees access to these things.

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[–] big_fat_dangus 0 points 7 points (+7|-0) ago 

Because they're cucks. Groveling and handing out their land, daughters, and money makes them feel good.

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[–] explorevoat [S] 1 points 12 points (+13|-1) ago  (edited ago)

I read a story about Pakistani rape gangs that groomed white under-age girls in Britain to be sex slaves. The police knew about it, and even after parents took their daughters with them to report the rapes the police refused to do anything for fear of being racist.

I thought it was the Onion. When I realized they let this happen for a decade and never has anyone really been punished I almost vomited.

1,400 little girls were repeatedly raped and made to do some pretty sick stuff while the police turned crying parents away.

Everyone should read this to get an idea of what is happening in Europe and the UK.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11057647/Rotherham-sex-abuse-scandal-1400-children-exploited-by-Asian-gangs-while-authorities-turned-a-blind-eye.html

WTF? Yeah flood your countries with more of these people!!

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[–] SilverBanana 3 points 3 points (+6|-3) ago 

Europe is dying out. We need new people to keep the population. Also, we feel sorry for people living in crappy conditions, I would like everybody to enjoy human rights, freedom from crime and developed infrastructure.

[–] [deleted] 0 points 4 points (+4|-0) ago 

[Deleted]

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[–] explorevoat [S] 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

Europe is dying out.

Could you support this assertion with some facts and objective numbers?

Also, why can't these people build these things in their home countries. It is not magic to have clean water and a sewer system that works, or a power plant.

All relatively simple things the Romans were doing most of 2.000 years ago.

[–] [deleted] 2 points 0 points (+2|-2) ago  (edited ago)

[Deleted]

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[–] explorevoat [S] 0 points 5 points (+5|-0) ago  (edited ago)

I am struck by the fact that it takes more than a "few" rare bad guys among the immigrants to turn 1,400 native U.K. female children into sex slaves passed around at male Pakistani parties and raped in every way.

That is not a few people. It takes a lot of people, a lot of planning, a lot of evil intent and malice to do that.

The fact that the police were afraid of losing access to promotions if they had any mark of racism in their file is damning.

Probably it took 6-10 men to recruit and control a girl. So we are talking as many as 14.000 Pakistanis involved in a conspiracy that only molested and raped the children of the "native" population of Britain.

So 14.000 Pakistanis participated in rape, driving the little girls from house to house, party to party, - --- the real question --- how many more Pakistanis knew about this but refused to be a witness?

One of the problems the police had is that they said they could not find an immigrant witness so it seemed a white vs. black (or dark brown) case they were scared to touch.

Not a SINGLE Pakistani had the Human Decency to come forward and testify to this horror.

Not to mention Charlie Hebdo or everything else one could link.

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[–] Syndicake 1 points 2 points (+3|-1) ago 

I see your point but actually people have a right to welfare. If they can't get it from their own governments then we must step in to provide them. - according to the universal declaration of human rights.

[–] [deleted] 0 points 10 points (+10|-0) ago 

[Deleted]

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[–] explorevoat [S] 0 points 11 points (+11|-0) ago  (edited ago)

Why are only Europeans called racist? Have you ever been to Japan? They don't like Gaijin very much. Gaijin disrupt the harmony of Japan.

There is literally no way to get citizenship in Japan as a Westerner. Japanese women who marry Westerners is one of the only possible ways - then you still need 20 years residency.

Any children from that mixed marriage are treated as freaks in Japanese schools.

I have never heard Japanese society called racist or seen them scolded for not taking in 100,000 African migrants each year.

Who is waging the psyops campaign against European homelands? It really resembles a military psyop in the way European countries are pressured to take in millions of unskilled 3rd world people without question. Perhaps it is easier understood if I say you are being hit with propaganda.

[–] [deleted] 0 points 6 points (+6|-0) ago 

[Deleted]

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[–] 002445 0 points 4 points (+4|-0) ago 

Japan IS known to be pretty racist, just like Korea. I'm certain we Europeans would suffer a big diplomatic hit if were the same as Japan. Just look at Japan on the world stage, they aren't a big player there.

[–] [deleted] 2 points 9 points (+11|-2) ago  (edited ago)

[Deleted]

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[–] explorevoat [S] 0 points 3 points (+3|-0) ago 

Actually what prompted this is was looking into moving to Norway. We talked to the official about, "well what if things work out and we wanted to stay permanently?"

This was mainly curiosity.

What we found out stunned me.

A family with money to support Norway's social systems, pay taxes into the system, and contribute to the economy, buy a home, etc.

It would be harder for us to become citizens than it is for illiterate unskilled people who came from the middle east and said they were "persecuted."

The guy actually asked us could we make a claim to suffer persecution or did we need refugee status?

My friend in Norway and I talked about this absurd situation at some length. Europe does not owe anyone anything. Tell these people to build the country they dream of at home, and if you want immigrants invite those who will contribute.

I still cannot get over the absurdity of this experience.

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[–] MetallicFire 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago 

I see absolutely no problem with this. Refugees (at least theoretically) have no place to live, since their home country persecutes them. If they are denied entry, they could be killed when they are sent back to their native country. If you are denied Norwegian citizenship, you are only mildly inconvenienced, since you have a home country in which you face no danger.

[–] [deleted] 3 points -2 points (+1|-3) ago 

[Deleted]

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[–] vfene 0 points 8 points (+8|-0) ago 

Italian here. We accept them because the other option is killing them / letting them die.

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[–] Batslug 0 points 6 points (+6|-0) ago 

It's fucking disgusting how many people would rather just let them all die, than living in a neighbourhood with them.

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[–] Commando 0 points 7 points (+7|-0) ago 

Because if we think otherwise, we are racist

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[–] apodo 0 points 6 points (+6|-0) ago 

I grew up in white England, a place which did have many virtues. At one point. dad's work took us to the USA for a couple of years, which really opened my eyes to how narrow and dull England was by comparison. The culture of modern England is richer, not diluted.

There are quite a few immigrants where I live, but people routinely overestimate the numbers. Most work. On balance, they put in more than they take out from social security. They are generally very positive about English culture and make it their own in new ways. There are problems with wages being driven down and rents being driven up, but that has much to do with the general structure of the economy, and the housing policies of successive governments.

The talk of dilution makes me wonder if racialism is important to you. It is very wide of the mark, in my opinion. Saying "I am more racially pure than you" is literally the same thing as saying "my ancestors were more inbred than your ancestors."

As for a unique European homeland, which do you mean? Europeans live all the way from the Atlantic to Siberia, as well as dominating North and South America and Australia.

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[–] TelescopiumHerscheli 1 points 3 points (+4|-1) ago 

It's pretty obvious that the OP is tacitly racist, though he's going the "plausible deniability" route by talking about "culture". This is usually code for "those black and brown savages can't adopt our culture", and neatly ignores the contributions of people of non-European descent who have made huge contributions to European culture - Pushkin, Maran, Du Chaillu, Alessandro de' Medici, de Pareja, and so on. European culture has been absorbing non-European people for twenty centuries or more - since at least the time of Septimius Severus and his family - and there's no reason not to continue doing so.

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[–] explorevoat [S] 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago  (edited ago)

I was not going to re-enter this thread, but you have no right, no right, to start calling me a racist. I never mentioned race, and people have a right to protect their ancestral culture from destruction.

By your logic Israeli's who want to preserve Jewish culture are one and all racists because they have strict laws around immigration.

So to be even remotely logically consistent you just called every Israeli Jew a nasty racist.

You filthy anti-semite. Its pretty obvious you dream of opening your own poison showers to have your own little backyard holocaust.

You are sick. It's pretty obvious.

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[–] explorevoat [S] 0 points 1 points (+1|-0) ago 

This really is just your personal preference and opinion that England is "dull." You are welcome to that opinion. Just don't try to present it as some kind of factual evidence.

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[–] apodo 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

My experience is that it was dull and narrow. Obviously that can only ever be subjective. I note that you chose to address that part of my comment rather than the more substantive, factual parts in the other paragraphs.

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[–] corsairio 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

Whites are only the majority in Argentina in SA, FYI.

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[–] explorevoat [S] 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

That is fine but this post has really nothing to do with the "new world" and is focused on Europe. It has nothing to say about "white" or "not-white"

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[–] apodo 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

Also Uruguay, Chile and Brazil, according to wikipedia, and that doesn't factor in the amount of white ancestry in the mestizo populations.

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[–] CarlosShyamalan 2 points 5 points (+7|-2) ago  (edited ago)

Lol go back to /pol/ you fucking faggot op. European culture is also our moral standards of helping people who dont have it as well as we do.

European imperialism is the reason why at least some of the shitholes where refugees come from exist. The least we can do is feel bad and give those who want to a new home.

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[–] explorevoat [S] 0 points 0 points (+0|-0) ago 

The Imperialists came from just a few countries. Europeans have done very little in the way of "bad" things if you study history.

May I present the largest Holocaust:

During the Muslim conquest of India only people of the book had protection under Islamic rule (Christians, Jews) - in India they encountered Hindus, Buddhists, Jains.

It was government policy to give these families one option, "convert to Islam or die."

During the course of the Muslim conquest of India 80,000,000 to 120,000,000 people were killed because of their religion. Mainly Hindus and Buddhists. This is the largest religious Holocaust carried out by a state in known history.

Perhaps the Muslims should have guilt and be making amends?

Source - use Google. I bet you have never heard of this before, the worlds largest state organized killing of innocent people for religious reasons.

Why do you think you have done so bad? If you study all the grisly details of history Europeans have probably done more to improve the dignity and comfort of mankind than any other group of people.

Also - you are responsible for your actions only. If you have not colonized a country in your life, relax. You have nothing to be guilty over.

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[–] CarlosShyamalan 0 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago 

Yeah. Please actually go back to /pol/.

Free speech is not a reason to spew bullshit.

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