Bret Easton Ellis Thinks You’re Overreacting to Donald Trump
Bret Easton Ellis, whose first book of nonfiction, “White,” is an interlocking set of essays about America, says he isn’t interested in politics and wants to just give everyone the benefit of the doubt.
When did people start identifying so relentlessly with victims, and when did the victim’s world view become the lens through which we began to look at everything?” So begins Bret Easton Ellis’s take on, of all things, Barry Jenkins’s film “Moonlight,” which he describes as “an elegy to pain.” Ellis’s first work of nonfiction, “White,” is an interlocking set of essays, combining memoir, social commentary, and criticism, on America, in 2019; more specifically, it’s a sustained howl of displeasure aimed at liberal hand-wringers, people obsessively concerned with racism, and everyone who has not gotten over Donald Trump’s election. His targets range from the media to Michelle Obama to millennials (including his boyfriend). Ellis also defends less popular people, from Roseanne Barr to Kanye West, whom he perceives as having been given a raw deal by the mob.
For those who follow Ellis on Twitter, none of this will be particularly surprising. He has gotten involved in several online controversies, including one that stemmed from him calling the filmmaker Kathryn Bigelow “really overrated” because she is “a very hot woman.” The more interesting question is how much of a departure this material represents from his fiction. When Ellis was in his twenties, he published three novels—“Less Than Zero,” “The Rules of Attraction,” and “American Psycho”—that are considered some of the most biting and lasting satires of Ronald Reagan’s America. But their protagonists’ materialism, misogyny, and amorality, along with Ellis’s early Brat Pack persona, have persistently raised questions regarding the depth of his social critique. “American Psycho,” about an investment banker and serial killer (who happens to worship Donald Trump), has been described as a masterpiece of postmodern literature, but it’s also been condemned by prominent feminists.
In recent years, Ellis has continued to publish fiction while also writing screenplays, including for Paul Schrader’s “The Canyons,” which became notorious for its troubled production. Since 2013, he has hosted the “Bret Easton Ellis Podcast,” on Patreon. Ellis and I recently spoke by phone. During our conversation, which has been edited for length and clarity, we discussed how people respond to allegations of sexual assault, whether the President is a racist, and why he finds liberal outrage so annoying.
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[–] 17963594? ago
There were plenty of people in favor of segregation. I am not sure how far that gets us.
There are plenty of people who like Donald Trump.
There are plenty of people who like all kinds of things.
No, I know.
You don’t have anything to add on that?
I think you are leading me into things I am not particularly that interested in.
Which is what, everything you wrote your book about?
No, just in terms of policy, in terms of Trump the man. It is more or less the coverage and the reaction to him.
In an interview with the T.L.S., you said that progressive movements become “as authoritarian as what they’re protesting,” and that “it’s happened to a degree with the #MeToo movement. The idea of sexual assault and violence against women is reprehensible. I don’t know anyone who doesn’t accept that.” Can—
Agreed. Agreed.
Well, you said it—of course you agree. So what you are saying is that everyone can agree assault is wrong, but maybe we are going too far?
I think what happened this week, with Joe Biden, has really alienated my boyfriend from his party, in a way. My boyfriend was extremely upset about how the media was treating Joe Biden and how they were putting that under the umbrella of #MeToo. That can happen, and I think we can all agree on that.
In the same interview, you said, “Look, this is the big, dirty secret: I don’t live in a bubble. I knew about 55 percent of people voting for Clinton and 45 percent voting for Trump. 20 percent of those voting for Trump had voted for Obama. They wanted a change person and they did not care that he grabbed the pussy, or that he said Mexicans were rapists. It was about the economy and job creation, with political correctness coming in second.” What do you think these voters were saying?
I think that the girls I know, the women I know, who were voting for Trump—the pussy comment did not bother them, because they grew up with the reality that they had three brothers, or they had two brothers, and this locker-room talk was a reality, and whether Trump really did it or not was not going to decide whether they voted for him or not. I thought that was interesting.
I am trying to synthesize this with your comment about sexual assault being “reprehensible” and you not knowing “anyone who doesn’t accept that.”
Yes, agreed.
So, on one hand, everyone is completely unaccepting of sexual assault, and, on the other, “they wanted a change person” and did not care that he sexually assaulted people. Is there no contradiction there?
Bragging about something? I don’t know.