[–] [deleted] ago 

[Deleted]

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[–] Svoodie ago  (edited ago)

You now argue against Marxist-Leninist state socialism. As I said in my previous reply not every self-proclaimed socialist is a supporter of state socialism. An argument against Marxism-Leninism is not on it's own an argument agains ideas like syndicalism, or council communism, or anarcho-communism, i.e. the libertarian left. Many of those left dead by Leninist in power were libertarian socialists. Not every self-described socialist is on the same team or support the same economic ideas, unless you believe in earnest that Tolstoy, Kropotkin, Albert Einstein, Stalin,Willy Brandt, and Saddam Hussein all proposed the same ideas. If you aim to criticise socialism you would do well to actually learn more of the extremely large differences that can be found in what is called socialist thought.

As for real world examples of socialist ideas. The idea of trade unions to strengthen the position of workers is a demonstrably massive success if one compares countries with a strong tradition of unionism, and those without. Worker's coops are also demonstrably a massive success, people who are in control of their own labour are generally happier with their work, and co-ops are much less likely to fire people when it can be avoided. Hell, the largest employer in the Basque region is a worker managed co-op, Mondragon, and it's not like that entire region has devolved into a Stalinist hell-hole. That is solid proof whole idea that implementing socialist ideas always leads to a slippery slope to slavery is false.

Besides, you cannot refute my previous argument by pointing out the failiures of "really existing socialism", when my previous argument was simply that there exists forms of socialism which does not seek you use state violence to implement its ideas.