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[–] alalzia 0 points 1 point (+1|-0) ago  (edited ago)

Keynesian economics worked well when USA was the only industrialized nation not ruined by war , today everyone and his mother has industries that can cover demand multiple times. I would be the last person to defend neoliberalism yet we all see how producing goods does not generate any profit and the interest has shifted to hot air selling financial markets. Global GDP is like 10% of the derivatives market and this says a lot.

Booming economies today are products of creative accounting , here in Europe all banks are bust (with UK's ones in the worst condition) the ECB is QEing sink-holes and every morning we wake up wondering which new financial institution we have bought .

The problem is political rather than economic, capitalism can not work in controlled/rigged markets (LIBOR ?) in the same way you cannot have communism without the dissolution of the state (fucking Engels) and since the state is the mechanism that drives protectionism and corruption neither capitalism benefits from its existence . So here is the question : do we keep the state around and move into completely new economics or do we dissolve it and let communities do as they like ?

...and about the zero hedge HAHA .

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[–] novictim [S] ago  (edited ago)

Keynesian economics worked well when USA was the only industrialized nation not ruined by war

This is the "special case" argument. I hope you see that. Sweden (not destroyed) and Germany (destroyed) have both done well pursuing the Keynesian approach. You have basically fallen for a sophisticated lie that you, yourself, have all the tools needed to unravel.

yet we all see how producing goods does not generate any profit

I rebutted that notion with these facts. -> https://voat.co/v/news/comments/964009 Producing your own goods has the benefit of closing the loop on wealth re-circulation as does using your own natural resources. They may be bought for less cost outside of the system but the leakage of wealth by chasing the penny costs the whole system a pound.

here in Europe all banks are bust

Europe is barely producing except in Germany and Sweden and even that is limited. That is the core problem.

Let me ask this. Why do gulf countries and other oil states face ruin when the price of oil collapses? Lack of production as a means of wealth generation is part of the answer. The other part is a lack of domestic consumers/middleclass. If they instituted tariffs and brought a lot more of production back, made labour relatively scarce so as to drive up wages, then things would inevitably turn around. You need to get money into peoples pockets through work and then that jump starts a virtuous cycle. The more activity then the more wealth is generated.

problem is political rather than economic,

Correct. What we are facing is, therefore, a political crisis of a few wealthy interests holding back the prosperity of the majority. The notion of globalization has simply led to the consolidation of wealth and the devaluing of labour and thus the constraining of consumer demand. Politics is creating a economic crisis where a ideology of efficiency = cheap labour has undermined what we should all recognize as a consumer-worker driven economy. It does not need to happen this way.

capitalism can not work in controlled/rigged markets

Wait! You had it right when you said this was a POLITICAL PROBLEM. Don't back away from that. This is about politics and an ideology that is driving politics. And we should know that collusion is inevitable, right? Free markets are just an ideal and we should not pretend they are magical or create things by will of a creator or what not. That would be naive.

There is nothing wrong with capitalism and capitalism is not a political system. Capitalism is just what happens when people have ownership and participate in a market. Capitalism does not say anything about NOT regulating the market or NOT regulating how capital is incentivized to move. We just need the right politics to get things back on track. If we stop strangling the Golden Goose of Worker-Consumerism through busting down wages via globalized labour then we can re-pump up the economy.

I hope you read that Matt Tiaibi article: https://voat.co/v/politics/comments/966972 Collusion is automatic.

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[–] alalzia 0 points 1 point (+1|-0) ago  (edited ago)

Apologies that it took me so long .

This is the "special case" argument. I hope you see that. Sweden (not destroyed) and Germany (destroyed) have both done well pursuing the Keynesian approach. You have basically fallen for a sophisticated lie that you, yourself, have all the tools needed to unravel.

I guess you do know that both Germany and Sweden keep their bankrupt or next to bankrupt public enterprises outside the public books not to mention that Germany is loaning the entire European south to buy their goods .

Europe is barely producing except in Germany and Sweden and even that is limited. That is the core problem.

Let me ask this. Why do gulf countries and other oil states face ruin when the price of oil collapses? Lack of production as a means of wealth generation is part of the answer. The other part is a lack of domestic consumers/middleclass. If they instituted tariffs and brought a lot more of production back, made labour relatively scarce so as to drive up wages, then things would inevitably turn around. You need to get money into peoples pockets through work and then that jump starts a virtuous cycle. The more activity then the more wealth is generated.

I am not entirely oppose this but thing is that for 30 or more years "supply side" economics have destroyed the purchasing power of the middle class worldwide and as a result there is no demand . I guess you have noticed how the QEs hoard money to the banks where they vanish , this is because nobody will take a loan to open a business because there will be no customers . If you remember during the summer a ship full of iron from China was valued as much as dirt .

Oh and before going farther in case you are not European think that the EU is paying farmers to not cultivate their fields , why? because potatoes from Morocco are much cheaper anyway .

Free markets are just an ideal and we should not pretend they are magical or create things by will of a creator or what not. That would be naive.There is nothing wrong with capitalism and capitalism is not a political system. Capitalism is just what happens when people have ownership and participate in a market. Capitalism does not say anything about NOT regulating the market or NOT regulating how capital is incentivized to move. We just need the right politics to get things back on track. If we stop strangling the Golden Goose of Worker-

Free markets are not an ideal and capitalism is not when people have ownership but only when some of them do. Corruption , capitalism and representative regimes go hand to hand and you cannot have one without the other . The faster we get rid of all three the better for all of them .

Now where i stand? i propose a mix of things : communist - those who work the means of production own the products , capitalist - free markets control pricing, supply and demand without tolls, taxes and subsidies , anarchist - direct democracy so nobody is either privileged or marginalized and everyone places his individual goals together with the prosperity of the society.