[–] TacoScrambler 0 points 4 points 4 points (+4|-0) ago
I'd say dere characters fall under the same blanket a lot of anime tropes do. Only as good as the writing and execution. There's nothing inherently wrong with a character who is tsundere or kuudere, it only becomes an issue when it is their only defining personality trait. Your examples from Evangelion are fine because they are relevant to the characters themselves, with actual inner turmoil and plot reasons as to why they would behave this way.
It's only really annoying when it's clearly "the tsundere girl" for the purposes of appealing to otaku. A lot of poorly written harems get this way and a lot of decent shows can forget to expand on a character. That said I'm also growing thin on parody tsundere characters. Grisaia was fine with Michiru using a guideline to try to be tsundere, but other anime that try this end up just making it even more shallow than the actual tsundere.
Kuudere is probably a lot more acceptable because it's less grating and usually has a lot of ways to handle it. There is so much variety from the typical "Rei clone" characters to "uncaring but super dere sometimes" to "depressed girl working out her emotions".
Yandere I'm mixed on. I haven't seen a lot of examples of it being done differently. It seems most of the time they fall into the exact same personality, unless it's only slightly Yandere like for example Ayase from OreImo, which was also slightly parody. Those are more appealing, where they seem like they can snap but it only seems like a fun fan theory that they will.
Overall most character driven shows I enjoy end up having characters that could only vaguely be labeled with an easy trope, so maybe it's more subconsciously grating than I believe.
[–] Obsidian_ 0 points 2 points 2 points (+2|-0) ago
I'm not really sure if tropes are overused, but if I had to guess I'd say yes they are. Tropes are easy to stick to and provide relatable characters to a wide variety of people. as far as the second question, some do and some don't. It all comes down to how a character is written and portrayed. I find if writers stick too faithfully to tropes and don't really include anything else, the character comes across as flat and fairly boring. That being said, if a writer includes a few easily-recognizable trope traits while fleshing the character out in other ways, then I'll probably like them better. It all comes down to who tropes are used
I do believe that these tropes exist in real life, to some extent. People had to have drawn inspiration for them from somewhere, right? Right. However, actual people are far too complex and different to be confined to tropes like these. Sure they can exhibit some trope traits, but being a 'full Tsundere' or a 'full Yandere' just isn't realistic in the real world.
My favorite is probably light Yandere. A character who is devoted to the point of slight paranoia, but not overly jealous or murderous or anything like that. Tsunderes are my least favorite. Most Tsunderes Ive seen strike me as emotionally unavailable or even unstable or abusive, and I just can't enjoy that. Other people might, and that's fantastic, but they just aren't for me.
[–] pingas-9000 ago
Honestly these tropes have to be really well done and have a reason behind them if they're going to work at all.
This is why they usually do not work.
The majority of the time you get the same old overused "B-Baka!" bullshit and it's just fucking annoying.
1) Are the descriptors / character tropes overused?
2) Do they stick characters into a 'box' of non-unique traits or do they provide a good initial framework?
Almost certainly. Writers will almost always use some sort of preliminary character archetype when designing a character. What differentiates using an archetype from whether or not it's a cookie-cutter or being in a box is whether or not the archetype is used as a foundation to expand upon, or is simply left to stand on its own. In the majority of cases, the archetypes are left to stand on their own -- though there are some shows that will point this out and then illustrate the consequences humorously (Sayonara Zetsubou-sensei being a good example).
Do these / can these character tropes apply to people in real life?
These are almost always a flanderization or gross simplification of reality. A tsundere is a cheap bitch, a yandere is a cheap psychopath, and a kuudere is a cheap introvert.
Now, could you describe actual humans in terms of these tropes? Almost certainly, but there would definitely be a lot of nuance and subtlety lost.
Saying someone is a tsundere is suggesting, at the simplest, that they have a rough external demeanor and a softer, gentler internal mannerism. Based on common depictions, it also suggests that they are prone to violent outbursts (since that is the "comedic" trademark of a tsundere).
Alternatively, you could just say that someone is an abusive bitch / bastard, and a very similar picture is painted, but one which is a bit more broader since it doesn't cover internal and external demeanors.
4) Which of these tropes do you like / dislike, and why?
I have a love-hate relationship with all of them, but let's take a jab at yandere.
A yandere is literally a cheap psychopath. In almost all cases, they are motivated by love (or sexual attraction), and thus act with an extreme hostility towards anything that threatens the illusion of their love. Again, in the majority of cases they are shown to have great volatility, and aren't afraid to be volatile to the person (or object) with whom they are attracted to.
It sounds nice on paper. It even makes for some pretty interesting works. But it relies on such exaggerated effects and demeanors that subtlety isn't a thing -- and a psychopath can play both the volatile and the subtle angles. Death Note would be a very different (and very much so worse) show if Light was a yandere instead of being a psychopath. Code Geass would suffer similarly with Lelouch being a yandere. Not having your moral compass pigeonholed to a goal of romance or love, and not being pigeonholed toward always doing extreme actions and allowing for subtlety and a variety of motives allows for better character building, and thus a better story.
So they have their purpose, but once you add on complexities to these archetypes, they stop becoming a *-dere and become something more real and much more intriguing.
[–] Kaysic 0 points 7 points 7 points (+7|-0) ago (edited ago)
I think my stance on the issue can be summed up in one phrase:
Tropes Are Tools.
Stereotypes don't happen in a vacuum; they're born of tried, tested, and successful literary patterns. When it comes to the -deres, they're really just character archetypes that are fairly common in all media, not just anime - if you look hard, and are honest, you can probably find a few deres scattered about. Off the top of my head, Hey Arnold has tsundere Helga; Sam from iCarly is also a tsundere; Littlefinger in ASoIaF is very much a yandere; even The Avengers' Black Widow could be argued to fit the kuudere archetype!
Problem is, as @TacoScrambler brought up, is when archetypes are exploited for fanservice. Popular characters are popular for a reason, and since anime - more so than a lot of industries - is driven by money, popular characters are reskinned to remain popular. I mean, hell, there's an entire trope dedicated to Rei Ayaname Clones. Which is ironic, because Rei Ayaname was herself supposed to be a satire of how otaku are obsessed with shy, mysterious, quiet girls and how those characters in actuality would be creepy and psychologically broken.
Of the three, I am the biggest fan of tsunderes, mainly because - when executed right - they offer the most opportunity for meaningful character interaction. Case in point? Holo
mah waifu. No, seriously! While Holo defies the stereotypical tsundere qualities - such as the obvious "I'm not doing this for you or anything *blush*" or the rampant physical abuse - Holo does match the qualities of a tsundere when you consider how her rough, wolflike outer personality is very much a protective front for her much more vulnerable and lonely interior.The realistic setup of Holo's character is precisely what allows for her to have meaningful interaction with Lawrence, who endures the harsh exterior thanks to his own qualities and eventually opens up the gentle side through natural plot and character development. There's a reason Holo is consistently rated very highly in popularity polls despite never having a lick of fanservice. (Okay, there was that one scene in episode 1, but that was like 30 seconds and not all that gaudy).
Yandere I find to be useful as a plot tool but generally very weak as a character archetype. They're good for introducing drama and tension to certain situations, but too often go over the top when it comes to balancing "ax-crazy" and "love;" like how all Kuuderes are essentially expies of Rei Ayaname, all Yanderes seem like they strive to be expies of Yuno Gasai - the problem being Yuno Gasai as a yandere worked specifically for her story and not at all anywhere else.
Kuuderes, though, are generally the most boring when played to the stereotype, primarily because they are almost always otaku-bait. A kuudere, played correctly, is normally an excellent opportunity to explore introverted characters and their interaction, but all too often it's just played as "girl is emotionless yet has an inexplicable attraction to the MC." There's rarely ever a true gap between the "sugar" and "ice," which leaves the character stagnant - they're always emotionless, even when expressing affection, which is both creepy and unrealistic, whereas good kuudere characters break that stoicness. Examples being CC and Lelouch (Code Geass), Lucy (Elfen Lied), and Homura.
[–] FinestWeirdo 0 points 1 point 1 point (+1|-0) ago
Excellent analysis and is very true about the issue at hand. I...would follow you to the battlefield if you told me to...