[–] CapinBoredface ago
So you admit people need religion
I wasnt very clear. What I meant was that people need community and guidance. Religion is a great path for that in most cases.
you take issue with someone saying that people need Jesus?
yes, because I dont think Jesus is the only path to morality. Saying that someone needs jesus implies that jesus is the only answer. I take issue with that sentiment.
I mean this is an issue that has been formulated many years ago and people still cannot provide a worthy answer other than religion.
and neither can I once the collective grows beyond a certain point. Or outsiders to the group are introduced. The nature of human consciousness is also cursed with a desire for purpose and lacking any definitive answer to existential questions a deity is necessary for those individuals within the group who cannot cope with un-answered questions.
Essentially without God how can there be right and wrong?
Well that's just a stupid question and another thing I take a huge issue with in regards to religion. I do not belive in god and yet I still have a sense of right and wrong. You can make the claim that god taught my parents and they taught me therefore my morals are still a product of gods will. Sure.
Here is my thinking. A child does not need god to learn morals. a child needs a society with rules to learn morals. I believe with every fiber of my being that if the idea of God had never been invented a given civilization would still have a sense of right and wrong. It would probably be wrong to murder people for no reason. it would probably be wrong to steal. the very basics of human morality are not based in religion, religion is based in the very basics of human morality.
You either have to admit that there is a universal right and wrong
okay...
which leads to God,
no it does not. It leads to a human morality that some people attribute to a god or multiple gods. Can humans not have a sense of independent justice without a diety? Of course they can. If you raised a child without any concept of god and when they were old enough to have a sense of ownership over a thing, say a toy, and you one day walked up and smashed that toy in front of them would the child not feel bad? Maybe you would feel bad for making the child feel bad. Maybe you'd decide to make a rule where you don't smash other peoples stuff. Or maybe that child will grow up and make the rule themselves. You do not need a god to tell you that a thing is good or bad.
or you throw the whole thing away and deny the existence of any kind of good and evil,
This is a false dichotomy youve presented me. God or Nihilism are not the only options and this is why I take issue with statements like "you need jesus."
you might need jesus, personally. And thats fine. Other people can find purpose and morals in their own spirit and do not need a prophet to show them a path. If you need that guidance thats fine, I applaud you for finding a road that will most likely benefit you, your family, and your community instead of just falling into despair and nihilism.
But please do not tell your children or other people who ask that Nihilism or Jesus are their only options.
I am not a nihilist and I don't believe in god. I believe in the nature of people to work together and understand the needs of their peers.
[–] salttypa ago
But the key belief of the christian faith is that Jesus is the only salvation. To claim that religion is useful but you can't say that it's the only answer is basically telling people it's ok to be religious as long as you don't take your religious beliefs seriously. You are asking people to be inconsistent.
This is missing the point a bit, no one is disputing whether people have a 'sense' of right of wrong, the question is how can right and wrong be justified without the presence of a superior being, or in other words, a god. How do you know what is right and what is wrong? Ok society tells you, fine. However how do you account for the fact that different societies have different conceptions of right and wrong? Whites are currently being ethnically cleansed in south africa, yet you cannot claim that this is wrong, as this is what the society tells blacks is ok. This example highlights the fact that if you leave right and wrong in the hands of man, i.e. society, people are going to have wildly differing conceptions of right and wrong, and no one will be able to justify their version of "right" over another's. This is why any world view without god leads to fragmentation, isolation, and eventually nihilism.
Not a false dichotomy, I admit it was somewhat incomplete however. God or Nihilism are not the only options, rather "God or Nihilism are the only logically coherent options" would be better. There are other options sure, but these options just aren't thought through completely.
And I won't be engaging my own children in a philosophy debate, they will be raised christian, which I thought would've been obvious at this point.
[–] CapinBoredface ago
So what? there are other religions.
No, its saying "its okay to not be religious as long as you are still a good person."
How? Be good to each other. If you can't manage decency without a God telling you then by all means, go to church and learn how to be nice.
simple. Would you like someone to rape you? No? Then rape is wrong. Would you like someone to murder you kids? No? Look how easy that is. No god involved.
I think about it. Is it right for me to take something that doesn't belong to me? Well it depends on a lot of factors. Inherently, stealing is wrong. I wouldn't want people to steal from me. But what if its a Robin Hood situation? Maybe under certain circumstances its okay to take something that doesn't belong to you. Other circumstances it wouldn't be. "Thou shalt not steal" doesn't leave much room for someone who picks an orange off their neighbors tree does it?
How do I account for it? They are different. Obviously. You show me one single society that thinks its okay to walk up to any person they want and just kill them for no reason. Or to walk into any home and take any thing that they desire without consequence. Show me one. How do you account for so many religions having so many Gods with so many different rules?
Sure I can. Their society is sick. Those people need guidance until they learn how to play nice. A sick society does not need Jesus. They need a guiding hand. I could be that guiding hand if they would listen to me, but they wont. They are too stupid or too stubborn. But maybe if I threatened them with eternal hellfire and suffering for not listening to God... well maybe that would get us somewhere.
And I already told you, this self determination only goes so far until I feel that religion becomes necessary to maintain the order of the masses.
No they wont. The idea of what is right and wrong is damn near universal. The details are what will differ. In your SA example for instance, you leave out the fact that the blacks dont think they are stealing the land. They think they are reclaiming it. They think that it was always theirs. They do think that stealing is wrong, and they think the white man stole from them. These are details. The over arching idea of right and wrong still applies to both sides of the coin, the issue is that both sides feel they have been wronged based on their own set of details.
Of course they can. You are trying to do it right now.
hahaha thats an even worse false dichotomy.
Elaborate.
Thats a shame. What about when they arent children anymore?